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8.30 pm
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough and Horncastle): I am grateful for the extreme courtesy shown to me and my colleagues by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in the way that they have listened to our representations about the need for free votes. I regret to say that, despite their great courtesy, I remain opposed in principle to the Bill. Unlike the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), I do not think that it is amendable, because the concept of no-fault divorce is at the heart of the legislation.
The Bill would have a great impact on millions of lives and it is also of enormous quasi-constitutional importance. Many of our institutions are based on the concept of the Judaeo-Christian state. Even the layout of the Chamber is based on the mediaeval chapel of St. Stephen's. The gospel view of marriage is clear: marriage is for life. The
Bill would advance further down the dangerous road of ending the concept of a Christian state laying down the framework of social life.
In the past 30 years, we have effectively said that the courts should no longer consider conduct in granting custody or dividing assets. Now, fault would not even be a trigger and would not even be considered. We would explicitly end the fiction--I accept that it is a fiction--that fault is considered by the courts. We would get rid of that altogether. The Bill, therefore, would not buttress marriage: it would undermine it. If we really wanted to get rid of quickie divorces, we could simple repeal the Matrimonial Causes Rules 1977. It does not apply in Northern Ireland--Northern Ireland Members have attended the debate--where 75 per cent. of divorces take between two and five years.
The Bill would explicitly give us divorce on demand when previously we implicitly had divorce on demand. If the current legislation is not being implemented or is being abused, that alone is not a reason for sweeping away the concept of fault. What message would we give to young people and our children? People make vows to maintain their marriage for life. That is a unique contract. Therefore, it follows that if a marriage ends, one or both parties are at fault. That may be unpleasant, but it is the logical reality. I am asked whether it is right to force people to make allegations against each other to achieve divorce. I agree that that is not pleasant, but the nature of the marriage vows mean that they can be ended only by a breaking of those vows and fault, on one or both parts, is involved.
I am told that the process of alleging fault damages children. They need not necessarily be involved in any consideration of fault, but they are necessarily involved in the fact of divorce. Therefore, divorce negotiations need not necessarily damage children, but divorce damages children. That is why at least eight states in the United States, where they have had no-fault divorce for 20 years, are considering getting rid of it. Hillary Clinton, who is not a crusty reactionary, has written:
The governor of Iowa, in his 1996 state of the state message, said:
No-fault divorce has simply resulted in the divorce rate in America increasing by 20 per cent. Even if we wanted to sweep away the concept of fault--I do not believe that, given the nature of the marriage vows, one can do that--are we really arguing that a year is adequate time when children may be involved and when a promise has been made for life? A year is far too short a time. Is it too much to argue that we should wait just 18 months or two years as a period for mature consideration of reconciliation and before mediation begins? It has been pointed out from both sides of the House, noticeably by the hon. Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng), that mediation is not reconciliation. Mediators are not trained to reconcile. They resolve conflicts about property or about custody: they do not save marriages.
Mr. Paddy Tipping (Sherwood):
I am pleased to take part in what, so far, has been a thoughtful debate. Few things are more important than partnership, marriage and having children, and seeing those children go through the cycle again. That is the fundamental life-blood that runs through our society and we all have experience of it.
We must learn not to let our experience prejudice social policy, because all marriages are different. People adapt in different ways and people find different solutions to their problems. My own experience before coming to the House was of working for 20 years with families. I must confess that most of those families were experiencing real problems, including marriage difficulties, being in the process of separating and in some cases having separated.
That brings me to my first major concern about the Bill. It seems to me to be set in a social vacuum--it has already been pointed out that it was drafted by lawyers--and it takes no account of the social climate, of unemployment, housing and the stresses on families. There is no recognition in the Bill, or in the documents which preceded it, of what constitutes a good marriage. We need to do more research on that, and the Lord Chancellor's Department has an important role to play. I do not believe that the Department should be just a cipher. The Lord Chancellor should commission and evaluate research and bring forward social policies, in conjunction with other Departments, which will strengthen partnerships and marriages.
There is a curious asymmetry in the Bill: it allows a period of 12 months for reflection at the end of marriage, but it says nothing about what might be done before marriage. The Government should have an important role in promoting discussion and education about partnership and marriage.
I generally support the notion of a no-fault divorce.My experience suggests that the acrimony which can arise in the current circumstances is extremely distressing. I believe that a no-fault approach can help children, who are the real losers when marriages break up.
I was interested to hear the Minister say that children's needs are paramount. He will recall that that is a phrase used in the Children Act 1989. It is no good idealising marriages or determining what is best in general for children because there is no common rule. I have spoken to hundreds of children in difficult marriages. I have talked to children who have been physically and sexually abused by their fathers. Some of them want their fathers to stay--they want to maintain a relationship--while others think it better to have the father expelled. There is no common solution, and we cannot say that it is always best for children if families are kept together.
Children's views should always be taken into account, of course, and I am pleased that the Bill reinforces that idea. I am also pleased that it includes a 12-month period for reconciliation and mediation. That is a long time in a child's life--50 per cent. of a two-year-old's life, 33 per cent. of a three-year-old's life, and so on. For a child, a day or a week can be a very long time. I believe that a year is long enough to settle uncertainty, and short enough to find a way forward by means of mediation or reconciliation.
I am sorry that so much of what lies behind the mediation and reconciliation provision is to be stipulated in regulations after the passage of the Bill. I should like to know whether the information sessions will be private or public. I should like Ministers to explain, perhaps in Committee, the difference between mediation and reconciliation: they are different processes. We need to focus, too, on the resources necessary for the whole process. The Bill is described as cost-neutral. I always take the view that when legislating for something new we have to accept, at least in the short term, that it will cost more. We should be investing in the people who are to mediate and reconcile; otherwise, in two years' time there will not be enough people with the requisite skills to pursue the task.
I hope that in Committee we shall consider the subject of domestic violence and that we shall listen to groups such as the Women's Aid Federation and Rights for Women. They point out that 500,000 women are victims of domestic violence, and that there were 1,015 rapes in 1977 and 5,082 in 1994. Half those rapes are perpetrated by husbands or partners.
For groups like those, the notion of no-fault divorce has a hollow ring. For a woman who has been beaten half to death, the concept of no fault is of no help--she wants early action, not reconciliation. Such women want justice, and soon. They do not want to wait a year. I hope that the Minister will assure them of the right to legal aid. I hope that we shall use this Bill as a platform to give women who are the victims of domestic violence greater protection. There is certainly scope to do that.
I am pleased that the Government have accepted the principle of pension splitting. Now we want them to work hard to ensure that when the Bill comes into force, in two years' time, pension splitting can be dealt with at the same time.
"For much of the 1970s and 1980s many believed that a bad marriage was worse than a good divorce. Now, however, we know that children bear the brunt of failed marriages . . . Divorce has become too easy because of our permissive laws and attitudes".
"I do believe we should reform our divorce laws to require mutual consent or specific grounds for divorce. Our present no-fault divorce laws have transformed into an arrangement of convenience rather than an act of commitment. Parents need to understand that divorce can severely hurt children and impact the opportunities their kids have. Please join me in our effort to find a better way".
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