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Mr. Howard: In reply to the first of the hon. Gentleman's questions, may I say that of course we have used our very best endeavours to ensure that the Bill is drafted in such a way as to be utterly consistent with our obligations under the European convention on human rights and with all relevant decisions of the Court of Appeal. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) made observations a moment ago about some of the recent decisions by the Court of Appeal. It is not always possible to predict with complete accuracy how the courts will respond in particular circumstances. However, we have used our best endeavours to ensure that the legislation is consistent with relevant decisions of that court.
In terms of the future, in the welcome event, for which I am sure we all very much hope, of a return to peace in Northern Ireland, the hon. Gentleman will know that the learned Lord Lloyd of Berwick is considering what powers will be necessary. I shall not give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that he requests, because if Lord Lloyd concluded that powers such as these are necessary in the long term, that view would clearly need to be given the most careful consideration. That will be looked at in the context of Lord Lloyd's report.
Sir Michael Shersby (Uxbridge):
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the powers to which he has referred will be widely understood and accepted by the majority of law-abiding citizens? Can he confirm that the power to stop and search pedestrians is intended to extend the powers of the police to look, in particular, for devices as opposed to the more general run of offensive weapons? Can he amplify his statement that those powers would be subject to the regulations made under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984?
Mr. Howard:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. I can confirm that the main purpose of the powers to stop and search pedestrians is to enable the police to find incendiary devices. Such devices have been used on a number of occasions and are now of such a size that they fit perfectly easily into a coat pocket. That is the main target of the powers to stop and search pedestrians. In the context of monitoring, the normal PACE powers will apply, as I think was anticipated in my hon. Friend's question.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann):
As the Home Secretary has said, for the greater part these powers bring the law in England and Wales a little closer to the law in Northern Ireland. However, is it not the case that the way in which the IRA has resumed its campaign makes the point that it does not regard as significant the administrative and legal boundaries within the United Kingdom and that we need a more comprehensive response by the United Kingdom as a whole, and not simply in legislation, but otherwise? Does he agree that there is an overwhelming case simply for a single United Kingdom-wide anti-terrorism Act, directed against not just IRA terrorism but terrorism generally?
Mr. Howard:
As the hon. Gentleman will know, that matter is being considered and it will be open to Lord Lloyd to make a recommendation to that effect. The hon. Gentleman demurs from what I say, but I doubt that he would be enthusiastic if I presented on an emergency basis the kind of comprehensive legislation that he seeks. It is sensible to await the deliberations of Lord Lloyd in looking at that aspect of the matter.
Mr. David Howell (Guildford):
While I recognise that the Northern Ireland peace process is not the direct responsibility of my right hon. and learned Friend, does he agree that there is very little hope of that peace process working unless terrorism is thoroughly defeated? Does he further agree that that requires counter-terrorist measures of the utmost vigour and imagination and that the measures that he has announced are certainly part of that, with their powers of search and intelligence acquisition? In the light of that, will he look to other Governments who have the same common interest, or say they have, in the defeat of terrorism? Will he urge his opposite number in Dublin to consider the same sort of powers, so that we really can defeat terrorism and see peace go forward in these islands?
Mr. Howard:
Of course, I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend about the need for firm and effective counter-terrorist measures. I am grateful to him for his support. I believe that these powers will add significantly to the armoury of the police in dealing with terrorism. The possibility of such powers being introduced in the Republic
Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire):
I am one of the Opposition Members who supports the bipartisan approach, but who voted against the prevention of terrorism legislation on the grounds that it contains civil liberties problems and that in many areas it is counter-productive to the peace process. Is not that the case with the measure that is now before the House and which contains some draconian provisions? For example, the 28-day provision might aid the IRA rather than help to contain it.
Mr. Howard:
I do not think that any of these provisions would be counter-productive. In many ways, one ought to pay particular attention to the views of the police on that question. They are close to the circumstances in which these powers have to be exercised, and it is not in their interests for the powers to be counter-productive. If that was their view, they would not have requested them.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough):
Either today, or tomorrow during the course of the debate, can my right hon. and learned Friend make it clear whether the new powers under section 13A of the PTA which he hopes to introduce will allow for random searching within the specified area, or must a police constable have reasonable grounds for suspecting that a particular individual, car or bag contains illegal substances? Can he say whether, during a search of outer garments, when a police officer thinks that there may be devices contained within inner garments, that officer can continue to detain that person for a closer search elsewhere? I support the plea by the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble), that before long, but after proper consideration, an all-UK anti-terrorist law should be introduced.
Mr. Howard:
I note what my hon. and learned Friend says about the possibility of all-UK legislation. As I said in reply to the hon. Member for Upper Bann, that matter is certainly being considered by Lord Lloyd. Under these proposals, the powers of search allow police officers to search pedestrians without having specific suspicion in relation to those pedestrians. That is really the point of the powers.
My hon. and learned Friend asked about a power to search beyond the outer garments. The Bill does not provide such power: it will depend upon the extent to which the police officer, having carried out a search of the outer garments, has suspicion about the person.
Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North):
Will the Home Secretary confirm that all the powers that he seeks could have been announced to the House over a fortnight ago, when we were discussing the renewal of the prevention of terrorism Act? To ask the House to pass this legislation, which will be subject to a guillotine, on the penultimate day before the recess, without adequate opportunity properly to examine the terms and content of the Bill or to take proper outside advice, would in itself be sufficient ground to vote against the measure. Will the Home Secretary also confirm that the new
Mr. Howard:
I do not accept the last point made by the hon. Gentleman--it is not right at all. Since the introduction of the prevention of terrorism Act, it has been recognised that there is a case for particular measures to deal with the terrorist threat. In relation to an earlier announcement, no decision had been reached on this matter when the prevention of terrorism Act was renewed. In many ways, I should have liked to be able to refer to it when the Act was before the House. However, as no conclusion had been reached on it, and as it was still under discussion and consideration, I did not think that any useful purpose would be served by mentioning it at that stage. It may have been decided not to bring these measures forward.
I have introduced these measures at the earliest opportunity, having reached a conclusion that they were necessary and justified. Once that decision was reached, it was incumbent on me to bring them before the House at the earliest possible moment.
Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire):
My right hon. and learned Friend will know that the murder of two young soldiers at Lichfield city railway station is still remembered with sadness by many people in my constituency. The proposals that he has announced today will be welcomed in Lichfield and Mid-Staffordshire as a whole. Does he believe that there will be any delays or difficulties because of the provision that he has announced today, that there would have to be approval by the Secretary of State for the Home Department for police constables to have stop-and-search powers for more than 48 hours?
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