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Mr. Beith: The police have been raising this matter for ages.
Mr. Howard: If I heard the right hon. Gentleman correctly, he said from a sedentary position that we have taken ages. He said earlier that the Bill had been gathering dust on the shelf at the Home Office for a long time and suggested that the powers had been asked for years ago. That is not the case. As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House said earlier, Ministers came to a conclusion about the need for those powers last week. In fact, Ministers came to a conclusion about that on Thursday.
I sent a message out from the meeting at which that decision was made to invite the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, the hon. Member for Blackburn and the spokesmen for all the other Opposition parties to meet me on that day so that I could communicate to them at the earliest opportunity the decision that the Government had reached and the way in which we hoped to proceed. We proceeded at the earliest possible moment. I may have explained that in slightly less detail in my statement yesterday, and I am happy to supply hon. Members with that greater detail today.
Mr. Beith: The one question that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has not answered is: when did the police first ask him for those powers?
Mr. Howard: I specifically explained that yesterday. In the course of the discussions that I had with the police in the aftermath of the South Quay bomb, the need for those additional powers evolved and was identified.
Mr. Howard: There was no precise moment. The discussions continued with the police in parallel with discussions that I was having with ministerial colleagues. Opposition Members may shake their heads in disbelief, but I fear that that only reinforces and confirms their utter ignorance of the processes of government. I have been endeavouring to adopt a non-partisan approach to the debate.
Mr. Howard: Yes, sometimes it is a struggle, as the right hon. Gentleman suggests.
Such is the history of how matters evolved. Let me say to the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed and other hon. Members that I contacted the spokesmen for the Opposition parties at the earliest possible moment that I could have done after Ministers had reached a decision, and I came to the House at the earliest possible moment thereafter.
Mr. Simon Hughes:
I have just one more question on the matter. Will the Home Secretary say clearly to the House when the police first discussed the matter with him? We have reason to believe that it was some significant time before the Canary wharf bomb. Those matters may have been discussed more recently, but it is understood that they have been under discussion between the police and the Home Office for many months. Is the Home Secretary denying that, and if so, will he do so at the Dispatch Box, in front of the House?
Mr. Howard:
The powers were the subject of discussion between me and the police in the aftermath of the South Quay bomb. That is right.
Mr. Howard:
The powers were the subject of discussion between me and the police in the aftermath of the South Quay bombing--
Mr. Howard:
Not before the South Quay bomb. I had discussions about the powers with the police after the bomb. That is when they took place. That is the answer to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Tony Banks:
To hear this Home Secretary talk about being non-partisan is very scary. The Home
Mr. Howard:
I will not identify particular police officers, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman and the House that I discussed those matters with the senior police officer who has particular responsibility within the police service for dealing with the terrorist threat. That is the appropriate person with whom to have such discussions.
Mr. McNamara:
The right hon. and learned Gentleman has said that he discussed these matters after the South Quay bomb. Can he tell the House whether representatives of his Department and his officials discussed those powers with the police before that bomb? That is point behind hon. Members' questions. Those powers were an issue before the bomb and were the subject of discussions with his Department, if not with him or his junior Ministers.
Mr. Howard:
Obviously, I have to be careful in what I say at the Dispatch Box. To my knowledge, discussions of the kind to which the hon. Gentleman referred did not take place. The discussions to which I referred--which took place between me and senior police officers charged with the responsibility of combating terrorism--did not emerge from discussions at official level. To my knowledge, the discussions were not the culmination of previous discussions at official level--the discussions evolved during my discussions with the police officers. That is the most complete answer that I can give to the hon. Gentleman and to the House.
Mr. Madden:
I ask the Home Secretary for some facts on which we may be able to form a judgment about the need for the additional powers. First, will he tell us--over whatever is the most convenient period--how many people have been arrested and charged with terrorist-related offences in Northern Ireland, where stop-and-search powers have applied for many years, as he has just confirmed? Secondly, how many people have been arrested and charged in the City and in the Metropolitan police area under the existing stop-and-search powers in the past month?
Mr. Howard:
With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think that those questions are more precisely related to the need for the powers--which I hope we will be discussing later this evening. He was courteous enough to give me notice that he wished to ask a question of that kind and later in the debate I shall do my best to provide as much information as I can in relation to that point.
We were discussing the limited nature of the stop-and search-power, which has been the most controversial of the powers that the Bill provides. I make no claim to the kind of expertise in the sus law to which the hon. Member for Blackburn laid claim--I cannot match his expertise in that field. However, I feel that he gave the House a clear and absolutely compelling analysis of the differences between this power and the sus law. They are completely different. It is completely misleading to suggest to the House, and far more to people outside the House, that the Bill in any way brings back the sus law. It is a completely
different and much more limited power, hedged around with safeguards that were acknowledged by the hon. Gentleman.
It is quite clear that there is a need for the powers--and I think that even many hon. Members who spoke in opposition to the timetable motion acknowledged that. The need for these powers is urgent. As was said by a number of contributors to the debate--notably in a powerful intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Day)--the greatest civil liberty to which our constituents aspire, and the civil liberty which we in this House should do most to protect, is the civil liberty not to be blown up by a terrorist bomb and not to be shot by a terrorist bullet.
Mr. Beith:
I remind hon. Members that the choice before them is whether to debate this matter on the basis on which each group of amendments will receive no more than five minutes' debate, which will not allow time for Divisions, or whether we will have an additional three hours in which to ensure that the powers are on the statute book well within the timetable outlined by the Home Secretary. The choice before hon. Members is not whether they deny the police powers that will save lives, but whether we work out these powers carefully enough to ensure that they are helpful, and that civil liberties are safeguarded, and have an additional three hours--no more--to do so. That is the subject on which I now invite hon. Members to support me in my amendment.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 47, Noes 261.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Banks, Tony(Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Canavan, Dennis
Chidgey, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Cohen, Harry
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cunningham, Roseanna
Dafis, Cynog
Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Gerrard, Neil
Godman, Dr Norman A
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Lewis, Terry
Livingstone, Ken
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McGrady, Eddie
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
Madden, Max
Maddock, Diana
Mahon, Alice
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Pike, Peter L
Rendel, David
Salmond, Alex
Sedgemore, Brian
Skinner, Dennis
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Wareing, Robert N
Wise, Audrey
Mr. Simon Hughes and
Mr. Nigel Jones.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gardiner, Sir George
Garnier, Edward
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorst, Sir John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hicks, Robert
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, Rt Hon John
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, Rt Hon John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Pickles, Eric
Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thurnham, Peter
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trimble, David
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Viggers, Peter
Walden, George
Walker, A Cecil (Belfast N)
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Derek Conway and
Mr. Simon Burns.
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