| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington): Are there circumstances other than those involving Northern Ireland in which the Home Secretary can envisage the powers to which he has just referred being used?
Mr. Howard: The purpose of the powers is to enable the police to combat all terrorism effectively. It is conceivable that a terrorist threat from another source, related to another matter, could cause the police to regard the exercise of those powers as desirable. I would certainly not wish to exclude that possibility.
Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge): What is proposed, albeit in limited circumstances, is a stop-and-search power. Those of us who voted for the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984--I served on the Standing Committee that considered PACE--feel that the balance of power is too much in favour of the criminal. If my right hon. and learned Friend is prepared to consider a stop-and-search power in the current circumstances, is it not time to reconsider PACE, bearing in mind the fact that we are 10 years on and that the powers in that measure need to be reviewed? He could then invite the Labour party to join us on that as well.
Mr. Howard: That is no part of today's proposals. I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not join him in speculating about the possibilities that he has attempted to put before me.
Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West): Perhaps this is an opportune moment for me to ask the question of which I gave the Secretary of State's office notice this morning and earlier in today's proceedings. How many people in the City and the Metropolitan police area have been arrested and charged with terrorist-related offences under the existing stop-and-search powers? How many people in Northern Ireland, where stop-and-search powers have applied for some years, have been arrested and charged with and convicted of offences related to terrorism?
Mr. Howard: I do not have the figures for Northern Ireland at present and I am not certain that I shall have them today. I shall certainly let the hon. Gentleman have them as soon as they are available.
The hon. Gentleman has asked a series of detailed questions about the use of the existing section 13A powers by the Metropolitan police. The figures are as follows: in the five Metropolitan police areas, there have been 1,746 vehicle stops under the power; there have been 8,142 vehicle stops within the Heathrow perimeter; there have been 1,695 searches of vehicles within the Metropolitan police area and 6,854 within the Heathrow perimeter; 2,373 persons have been searched as occupants of a vehicle within the Metropolitan police area and 40 within the Heathrow perimeter. That has led to two arrests under the prevention of terrorism Act and 66 other arrests. I hope that I have been able to answer the hon. Gentleman's questions, at least in part.
Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South):
The use of stop-and-search powers in Northern Ireland has diverted would-be terrorists from their task. In addition, people have been apprehended and weapons have been found.
Mr. Howard:
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in his analysis. The number of arrests does not present the whole picture. The value of the power extends far beyond the number of arrests. Those who have experience of its use, such as those whom the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) and his colleagues represent in the House, are fully aware of the value of that power in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Campbell-Savours:
Will the Home Secretary be a little more explicit in his reply to the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls)? The hon. Gentleman asked about further extending PACE and the Secretary of State replied that he felt that it was not part of the Bill and that therefore he could not reply specifically. Is he ruling out for the rest of this Parliament the recommendation that the hon. Gentleman made in his intervention?
Mr. Howard:
I have no plans at the moment to go along the road that my hon. Friend invited me to travel with him, but in the context of today's debate I am not ruling in or out other changes to the criminal law and our system of criminal justice. I certainly agree with the general point made by my hon. Friend that the balance in our criminal justice system has tilted much too far in favour of the criminal and away from the protection of the public. We have taken a number of measures to remedy that in the past few years and I have plans, which I shall announce shortly, further to improve that balance. I have no plans to introduce the particular remedy that my hon. Friend suggested.
Mr. Neil Gerrard (Walthamstow):
The Home Secretary told us that two arrests were made under the stop-and-search powers in the PTA. Were charges laid and, if so, what were they and were there any convictions?
Mr. Howard:
I cannot give the hon. Gentleman that information. I am sure that he has been listening attentively to the debate, so I remind him of my exchange with the hon. Member for Belfast, South, which clearly reinforced the proposition that the value of the powers is not simply to be derived from an examination of the statistics.
Each of the new provisions will make a difference. Each is designed to ensure that the police will be better equipped to protect and safeguard the public, and to combat terrorism. I have, as I said yesterday and earlier today, discussed my proposals with Opposition spokesmen. I welcome the support of the hon. Members for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) and for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley). I very much welcome the recognition by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) of the need to act quickly.
Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield):
New section 13B(2) suggests that searching may be carried out when there is a suspicion of the instigation of acts of terrorism. Would "instigation" include written material containing political objectives which, it might be argued before a court,
Mr. Howard:
Whether the possession of written material might constitute evidence of instigation would depend on the nature of the written material; in the end it would be a matter for the court to determine. It would clearly have to be more than political propaganda, which would not amount to an instigation to terrorism. But there could be written material that showed that someone was involved in encouraging others to commit terrorist acts, or something of that kind. That might well involve the instigation of terrorism--
Mr. Benn:
But instigation has many meanings. If someone writes a pamphlet, or has pamphlets on him, containing the argument that Britain should not be in Northern Ireland, and if that pamphlet were distributed, might it be held, in the Home Secretary's view, that the very presentation of the arguments in the pamphlet would instigate some people to terrorist acts? The right hon. and learned Gentleman must be clear about that.
Mr. Howard:
I can be perfectly clear about that example. Of course advocacy of a particular status for Northern Ireland would not involve instigation to terrorism--that is the expression of a political view. I do not know whether it will reassure the right hon. Gentleman--it may or may not--to learn that this is not a new phrase designed specifically for this Bill. It is time-honoured language, used in the prevention of terrorism Act in a different but similar context. As the House would expect, we seek to follow and reproduce the language in the PTA to the fullest possible extent.
I turn next to the detailed content of the Bill. Clause 1 fills a lacuna in the existing powers under section 13A of the prevention of terrorism Act. Section 13A was added to the Act by the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. It currently allows a constable to stop and search any vehicle, its driver and any passenger in it. He may also stop any pedestrian and search anything he is carrying for articles of a kind that could be used in preparing, commissioning or instigating terrorist acts. But he cannot search the pedestrian for anything which he or she may have concealed about them--for example, in a jacket pocket.
The operation of the existing stop-and-search powers has led the police to believe that an additional power to search pedestrians would be of real practical benefit. I accept that. Bombs and incendiary devices do not need to be very large to kill or destroy. A typical device may be no bigger than an audio cassette. I have seen examples of what has been found, and I must tell the House that it is perfectly possible to carry one or more of these devices in pockets without an observer being any the wiser. But these things are not just carried in pockets. In Northern Ireland, explosives and other material have been found in shoes; and guns and other weaponry can easily be concealed under a shirt or jacket.
Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed):
If, under the terms of this clause, a constable carries out a search of outer clothing and finds nothing but becomes suspicious about the behaviour of the person, would he, under
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |