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Mr. Howard: Not under these powers; but once a constable entertains suspicions relating to the person whom he is searching, the powers under PACE come into play, and the usual search powers are available to him: he can search the person in the way the right hon. Gentleman has described, or take the person to a police station.
Clause 1 accordingly inserts new section 13B into the PTA, giving the police power to stop and search pedestrians in a designated area. Clear safeguards will apply, as in section 13A. Searches will be allowed only within an area authorised by an assistant chief constable and only for a specified period of up to 28 days. In addition, authorisation of the exercise of the new powers must be confirmed by the Secretary of State within 48 hours of the authorisation having been given. If that confirmation is not forthcoming, the authorisation will lapse. The Bill further provides that the Secretary of State will have the power to cancel the authorisation and/or if he wishes, to substitute a shorter period during which the powers will be exercised.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann):
I wonder whether the procedure whereby areas must be specified before the powers become exercisable is not unduly restrictive. Under section 13A, the procedure has been used only after incidents have occurred, which suggests closing the stable door after the event. Such measures may be of general reassurance to the public, but they do nothing to prevent serious incidents from occurring. Do we not really need powers of this nature to become operative before incidents occur, not after them?
Mr. Howard:
We do, and these powers would so apply. The reason why thus far they have been used only after the event is, as the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, that they came into force only after the ceasefire was declared and have been used only since the South Quay bomb. But that is no sure guide to how they will be used in future. I would expect them to be used in advance of a terrorist outrage when there is intelligence that such an outrage may be committed in a particular area. Therein lies the real necessity for these powers--not just to be used after an outrage but in anticipation of one, thereby enabling it to be prevented. That is what the powers are designed to achieve.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow):
A moment ago the Home Secretary referred to the role of the Secretary of State. Will he confirm that, where Scotland is concerned, he is talking about the Secretary of State for Scotland--except perhaps when he is absent and his role may be taken on by the Home Secretary?
Were senior Scottish police officers consulted on these matters?
Mr. Howard:
The hon. Gentleman is quite right. The Home Secretary would usually give the authorisation in England and Wales, and the Scottish Secretary would give it in Scotland. As the hon. Gentleman appreciates, there
As for consultation, I said earlier that my discussions had been with the senior police officer responsible for countering the terrorist threat in Great Britain. I have no doubt that he reflected the views of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland) as well as those of the rest of the police service.
Once authorisation has been given, a police officer will be able to stop any pedestrian and search him and anything he is carrying for terrorist devices or other material. The search will be a rub-down search. The officer may ask the pedestrian to remove his outer coat, jacket, footwear, gloves or headgear in public to facilitate the search.
To enforce the new power, clause 1 also creates offences of failing to stop when asked to do so and of wilfully obstructing a constable in the exercise of the new powers. These mirror the offences in section 13A and will carry the same penalty--on summary conviction, up to six months' imprisonment, or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or both. Prosecution for either offence will proceed only by or with the agreement of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
Mr. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk, West):
I see no specific reference in clause 1 to a warrant to enable a police officer to use the stop-and-search powers in relation to people, yet in clause 2 there is a specific reference to a warrant from a justice of the peace to enable the police to search non-residential premises. Does that mean that people are less important than non-residential premises?
Mr. Howard:
No, it does not mean that. If the hon. Gentleman reflects for just a moment, he will understand that it would not be practicable to expect a police officer to ask a magistrate for a warrant to search the outer garment of someone he encountered in the street in an area where a terrorist outrage was anticipated. On the other hand, it is perfectly practicable for the police to go to a magistrate if they wish to search premises for bomb-making equipment or a lorry used in the course of an outrage. That is the reason for the distinction between the two clauses.
Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock):
Will the Home Secretary clarify two points? First, was the Association of Chief Police Officers consulted, did ACPO ask for the powers or did the senior police officer dealing with terrorism ask for the powers? Secondly, if a uniformed British Transport police officer is travelling between railway stations--and he is not in the jurisdiction of railway property--and is in one of the designated areas, will the powers extend to him or her?
Mr. Howard:
On the second question, the Bill does not extend the power of British Transport police officers to act outside the places where they are entitled to act under existing powers, but the Bill will give them the enhanced power to stop and search pedestrians if the places in which they are entitled to act are within a wider area designated by a senior police officer in accordance with the Bill.
On the first question, I said earlier that the need for the powers evolved during discussions that I had with senior police officers in the aftermath of the South Quay bomb.
I had a number of such discussions when reviewing the security situation. My recollection is that in the course of those discussions I asked an officer whether he was satisfied that the police had all the powers they needed. That is my best recollection of the way in which the conversation developed. The need for the powers evolved and was identified. Thus we find ourselves here today.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield):
The proposals, which are very limited in scope, have clearly been requested by the police, especially those dealing with terrorism. Is not the deterrence of terrorist acts and the preservation of life worth a little inconvenience?
Mr. Howard:
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I am sure that those of my hon. Friends and some Opposition Members who earlier expressed the view that the greatest civil liberty is to live one's life free of the threat of terrorist bombs and bullets speak for the nation. I am sure that that is the view of our constituents.
Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley):
Will the Home Secretary give way?
Mr. Howard:
I will give way to the hon. Lady, but then I must make some progress. I am conscious that we have little time.
Mrs. Clwyd:
I wish to ask for clarification on a point. Will the searches of women be carried out by women police officers?
Mr. Howard:
I cannot possibly give the hon. Lady that assurance. If a police officer, in an area designated for the purposes of clause 1 and where a terrorist outrage is believed to be imminent, encounters a woman whom he may have no particular reason to suspect but whom he needs to search to see whether she is carrying a bomb or some other device, it is unrealistic to suggest that he should not do so because a woman police officer is not immediately in the vicinity. I hope that the hon. Lady, on reflection, will see the complete impracticality of her suggestion.
Mrs. Audrey Wise (Preston):
Will the Home Secretary give way?
Mr. Howard:
I will not, if the hon. Lady will forgive me. We have limited time and I must make some progress. [Interruption.] I do not suppose that Opposition Members would thank me if I took all the time for the Second Reading of the Bill.
The police are well aware that the new power will need to be exercised with circumspection and sensitivity. Clear guidance will be issued to police forces to ensure consistent and careful operation. The hon. Member for Blackburn said yesterday that Parliament should receive regular reports on the operation of the new stop-and-search powers. I readily gave that assurance. The hon. Gentleman also asked about monitoring. Again, I have given the assurance that the operation of the stop-and-search powers will be monitored, just as the existing section 13A powers are under the relevant PACE code.
Mrs. Wise:
A pedestrian may not know that the area is a designated area. If she refuses to be searched in a
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