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9.45 pm
Mr. Howard: We have had a constructive and helpful Second Reading debate. As I have made clear, these are clear and practical measures--they are not revolutionary, but they are necessary. The police believe that and I do so too. If it is too optimistic to hope that all quarters of the House believe it, I hope that at least the overwhelming majority of hon. Members will do so.
My aim has been to meet the real needs of the police, as they have been put to me in my discussions with them in the wake of the South Quay bomb. I have also been careful to consider what safeguards are needed to prevent the risk of misuse, and the combination of authorisation by senior officers, limitations of duration and geographical extent and annual scrutiny and renewal of the rest of the Act provide the necessary assurance. We all recognise that the stop and search of pedestrians is the most sensitive issue, so the power is subject to confirmation or alteration by the Secretary of State.
We have endeavoured to strike the right balance between the powers necessary for the police to do the job that we ask them to do and the freedom of the citizen to go about his business without interference. I hope that the overwhelming majority of hon. Members will agree that we have got the balance right. I was grateful for the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter), who, in a robust speech, rightly identified the important part that these powers can play. I am sorry that I missed some of the other speeches, but I agree with the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth
(Mr. Michael) that the interesting speech made by the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) raised a number of points to which we will have to return in due course, but they are not for this evening.
I was grateful for the attitude taken to the powers by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) and his hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth. It is important--as I have urged before on many occasions--that as united a signal as possible goes out from the House to show that we are resolved to meet the terrorist threat. I believe that the greater the extent to which we can achieve that unity, the more impressive the signal will be. It is therefore somewhat disappointing that we have not been able to achieve complete unity in our deliberations.
I am sorry that I missed the speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), but I understand that he repeated some of the points that he made in his speech on the timetable motion and in interventions on my speech and on those of other hon. Members.
I understand that these powers inevitably give rise to concerns. They are, in common with all the powers that we take under the prevention of terrorism Act, exceptional powers. They are powers that are needed exceptionally to meet an exceptional threat.
We recognise that in some instances the legislation gives powers to the police that go beyond what they would require or would be given by Parliament in the normal course of their duties of maintaining law and order and combating crime. We have always recognised that; it was recognised from the outset of the prevention of terrorism legislation. Indeed, as the hon. Member for Blackburn pointed out rather effectively, that point was recognised by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North during debates on the need for the powers in the original substantive legislation.
Even though people have not always maintained the same position over the years in relation to this legislation, there has been a wide measure of support for it. Against that wide measure of support--against that background--we have introduced the Bill this evening. Although concerns continued to be expressed during our deliberations, even those who expressed them recognised that some attempt has been made to insert the necessary safeguards to try to ensure that the powers are exercised responsibly.
Mr. Howard:
I am glad to see a nod of assent to that proposition from the right hon. Gentleman, whose speech I was sorry to miss. I understand that he said in that speech that he would support the Bill on Second Reading.
We are still somewhat on tenterhooks to know what attitude the official Opposition will take when we go into the Division Lobbies, if there is a Division on Second Reading, because we do not quite know whether the Labour party will abstain or vote in favour of the Bill in that event.
Sir Ivan Lawrence:
We would like to know.
Mr. Howard:
Indeed, as my hon. and learned Friend points out, we would like to know.
I have paid tribute to the hon. Member for Blackburn on more than one occasion this evening; I hope that I have not embarrassed him unduly by doing so. It is difficult to see, in the light of his speech and the speech by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth, how Labour could do anything other than come into the Lobby with the Government if there is a Division on Second Reading. I do not believe that any other course would remotely make sense.
Mr. Mackinlay
indicated assent.
Mr. Howard:
If hon. Members are still weighing up how to vote and what action to take at that point, they may derive some comfort from the nods given to that proposition by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) and others who clearly agree that the only approach consistent with the observations made by the hon. Members for Blackburn and for Cardiff, South and Penarth is to vote with the Government, if we have a vote on Second Reading. I am sure that there will be a vote and I think that there is unanimity about the proposition that I have just advanced. I see, however, no vigorous nods of assent from the hon. Members for Blackburn and for Cardiff, South and Penarth, and they show no great disposition to answer the question posed by me and my hon. Friends.
I was sorry to have missed the speeches by my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton(Sir I. Lawrence). I am sure that I would not have shared the view of the speech by my hon. and learned Friend that was expressed by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth. Although the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth and I are old sparring partners, even I draw back from taking issue with him about the contents of a speech that I did not hear. I shall not take up the cudgels with the view that he expressed, although I am certain that if I had heard my hon. and learned Friend's speech I would not have agreed with the hon. Gentleman's strictures.
The Government's job is to safeguard the ability of law-abiding citizens to go about their business in peace. The terrorist strikes directly at that prime responsibility. It must be our duty to take every reasonable measure to frustrate the terrorist's plans and to bring him to justice. As has been said, that may sometimes mean some inconvenience to the public, which we all regret. There can be few people who would object to some occasional inconvenience if that is the price of tightening the screw on terrorists who threaten disruption. That point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) earlier and I endorse it.
Sir Michael Shersby (Uxbridge):
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the best guarantee that the House has that these powers will be exercised responsibly is the sheer professionalism and training of the British police service? The public have every right to expect a professional approach to the exercise of the powers.
Mr. Howard:
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. His point is very important because it illustrates that some of the concerns that have been expressed by the Opposition are somewhat remote from reality and have not given credit to or taken into account precisely those qualities of
The Bill will not prevent all acts of terrorism, but if it prevents one it will have been worth putting on the statute book. If it disrupts terrorists' plans, it will be worth while. If it strengthens the hand of the police in protecting the public and bringing terrorists to justice, it will be welcome to every law-abiding citizen. I ask the House with some confidence to give it a Second Reading.
Question put, that the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 21, Noes 244.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Barnes, Harry
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Canavan, Dennis
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Cohen, Harry
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Home Robertson, John
Lewis, Terry
Livingstone, Ken
Loyden, Eddie
McGrady, Eddie
McNamara, Kevin
Madden, Max
Mallon, Seamus
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Pike, Peter L
Sedgemore, Brian
Skinner, Dennis
Wise, Audrey
Mr. Neil Gerrard and
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alton, David
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Chidgey, David
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gallie, Phil
Garnier, Edward
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorst, Sir John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hicks, Robert
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Leigh, Edward
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McCrea, The Reverend William
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maddock, Diana
Maginnis, Ken
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, Rt Hon John
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paisley, The Reverend Ian
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Rendel, David
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Trimble, David
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Viggers, Peter
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Wallace, James
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'fld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Roger Knapman and
Mr. Derek Conway.
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