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AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Alton, David
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Beggs, Roy
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Chidgey, David
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gallie, Phil
Garnier, Edward
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorst, Sir John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hicks, Robert
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Leigh, Edward
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McCrea, The Reverend William
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maddock, Diana
Maginnis, Ken
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, Rt Hon John
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paisley, The Reverend Ian
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Rendel, David
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Trimble, David
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Viggers, Peter
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Wallace, James
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Timothy Wood and
Mr. Roger Knapman.
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Barnes, Harry
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Canavan, Dennis
Cohen, Harry
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Lewis, Terry
Livingstone, Ken
Loyden, Eddie
McGrady, Eddie
McNamara, Kevin
Madden, Max
Mallon, Seamus
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Sedgemore, Brian
Skinner, Dennis
Wise, Audrey
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn and
Mr. Neil Gerrard.
Question accordingly agreed to.
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole House, pursuant to Order [this day].
Considered in Committee.
Mr. Michael:
I beg to move amendment No. 36, page 1, line 6, after '(1)' insert--
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Michael Morris):
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 47, in page 2, line 15, leave out 'cause' and insert 'obtain the approval of'.
No. 48, in page 2, line 15, leave out from 'State' to 'given' in line 16 and insert 'before it is'.
No. 52, in page 2, line 35, at end insert--
Mr. Michael:
I am grateful for the opportunity to move the amendment standing in my name and those of my right hon. Friends. The purpose of amendment No. 36 is to provide the type of reassurance that we have sought in supporting the legislation as to the way in which the powers will be exercised. I hope that the Minister will welcome that opportunity, as the amendment addresses some of people's understandable concerns about the way in which such legislation may be used.
It is always possible to misuse legislation, but Parliament's intention must be clear, as must the safeguards that are built into the various Acts to which I referred during Second Reading. Amendment No. 36 would make the power outlined in clause 1 exercisable, subject to guidance issued by the Home Secretary. Clause 1 extends the powers already available under the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 to the searching of pedestrians, and contains also the narrower power to stop pedestrians and search anything carried by them.
Amendment No. 36 acts as a hook for amendment No. 52, which says:
The amendment raises a number of important issues, including the matter of consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers. Chief police officers and superintendents, who often oversee operational matters and are sensitive to the needs of the area in which they have oversight of police officers, are increasingly sensitive about the downside of certain powers and the dangers when those powers are perceived by members of the public as being used in an inappropriate way.
It seems to me that chief police officers, superintendents of police and the police generally will welcome an assurance from the Home Secretary that it is his intention to consult them and to listen to them about the ways in which the powers contained in the Bill are used. The amendment would also give him the power to issue guidance on the sensitivity that should be shown in the use of the powers in section 13A as well as their extension in the Bill. Finally, the amendment would allow the Home Secretary to give clear guidance on the circumstances in which the powers should be used.
The Home Secretary has stated--in the Chamber today and yesterday and in seeking to win support for the Bill--that it is his intention that the powers should be used firmly when they are needed, but with sensitivity and in a balanced way. It is important that we achieve that balance. We all want the police to act as quickly as possible when there is a threat to public safety or when certain suspicious circumstances require police action, but we also want the powers to be used in such a way that they are not brought into disrepute and that doubt is not cast on the way in which they are used.
That is slightly at odds with the earlier comment by one of my colleagues that the powers of the police are used with a great deal more sensitivity than was the case some years ago. For instance, the Metropolitan police exercise the power to stop and search people a great deal more sensitively than used to be the case. As one who worked in an area with a high proportion of ethnic minorities--the docks area of Cardiff--I have seen a positive development in the sensitivity with which the police try to understand the motivation of those who live in the communities in which they serve and seek to maintain law and order. That is a welcome development, over a period of time, and it should be encouraged. We believe that it should have the weight of the Home Secretary behind it, and I hope that we shall receive such an assurance about the use of the powers in the Bill as a result of the debate that I am introducing.
My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) made some references--to which the Home Secretary responded yesterday--to the monitoring of the way in which the powers are used. The Home Secretary referred specifically to the way in which the powers are used in relation to people from ethnic minorities. I said earlier that I do not believe that it has been a problem in respect of the powers introduced in the 1994 Act and I do not believe that it will be a specific problem in respect of the Bill, but it has been a problem in the past, when powers
to stop vehicles entering the City of London, as well as those being used in certain communities in London, gave rise to a great deal of concern, particularly among young people and the black community.
10.22 pm
'Subject to any guidance issued by the Secretary of State under subsection (11) or otherwise,'.
'(11) The Secretary of State may, after consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers and such other persons or bodies as he deems appropriate, issue guidance on the sensitivity with which the powers contained in section 13A and this section should be exercised and the circumstances in which the powers should be used.'.
"The Secretary of State may, after consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers and such other persons or bodies as he deems appropriate, issue guidance on the sensitivity with which the powers in section 13A and this section should be exercised and the circumstances in which the powers should be used."
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