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10.45 pm
Mr. Peter Bottomley: The hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) made a disgraceful speech, which paid no attention to the earlier debate on the timetable motion. [Hon. Members: "She was not here."] I do not believe that the hon. Lady was present for that debate.
Ms Abbott: I watched it on television.
Mr. Bottomley: If the hon. Lady had watched it on television she would have heard what was said, and would not have said what is contradicted by the evidence. What has happened in the 15 years since the sus law went will not be overcome by clause 1, regardless of whether it is amended. I view this as a probing amendment, and look forward to what my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has to say.
We should recognise that those who need protection from terrorism are ordinary people--the sort of people whose husbands were killed by bombers in South Quay. Some people--not just the IRA but, potentially, other terrorists--are dedicated to turning women into widows and children into orphans. As the hon. Lady will have seen if she was watching the earlier debates on television, in some parts of the United Kingdom many of these provisions are already effective. We must ask ourselves, as many did in the earlier debates, whether we should exclude Great Britain from powers that are available to the police in Northern Ireland. That does not seem to me to be bringing back the sus law.
People in their cars can be stopped and searched but those getting off a bus cannot. Given the events that proved fatal to a person at the Aldwych, should we ignore
the lessons? Should we not allow the police to stop someone getting off a bus? The House should realise that ordinary people throughout the country--whatever the colour or their skin, eyes or hair--support such a move. There is no reason to believe that the Bill would bring back any of the harmful effects of the sus law.
I believe that we can trust those on both Front Benches. If both sides are willing to say that they see good reason for these measures, with or without extra guidance, other hon. Members must oppose them with good reason. What we heard from the hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington was not good reason but prejudice. In some contexts, prejudice works in the wrong way. Changes are needed in the police services, for instance. I believe that the colour of people's skins still affects the number of times they are stopped--for example, most people who are stopped on Vauxhall bridge are black, and I do not think that that is right. I do not believe that skin colour should determine whether someone joins the police, enters Parliament, goes to prison or is in or out of work. All that needs challenging. The Bill's provisions are not like that, however, and I feel that the hon. Lady's speech featured the worst kind of stereotyping.
Ms Abbott:
I do indeed have a prejudice. I have a prejudice against my party's following the Home Secretary down an increasingly ill-thought-out and illiberal path.
Mr. Bottomley:
I think that the hon. Lady has done enough damage to her own case by her own words.
Mr. Bennett:
I want to ask the Home Secretary for a little more information about the guidance which, I think, he has promised to issue. It is important for him to understand that, sadly, in this country, the natural reaction of too many people, especially young people, is not to assist the police but either to ignore them or to turn a blind eye to their activities. It is very important that the Home Secretary ensures that the clause does not increase alienation.
I put to the Home Secretary the difficult circumstances of people who commit a minor crime by carrying in their pocket an illegal substance--soft drugs of some type--about which most people, and certainly nowadays the police, do not get particularly excited. The problem is that, often, when the police officer decides to search such an individual, that person becomes extremely frightened about the fact that that illegal substance is in his pocket and perhaps behaves in a very silly way. I hope that the Home Secretary will make it clear in the guidance that, although the police cannot ignore the fact that they have come across that substance when they carry out the search, such a discovery will be considered sensibly.
It is clear that in some parts of the country, when individuals are found to have small quantities of drugs that are clearly for their personal use, the police use their powers of caution sympathetically. I suggest to the Home Secretary that it is important that the guidance is put across sympathetically, otherwise it will create alienation among a group of young people who are already not particularly sympathetic to the police. I hope that the Home Secretary's guidance not only does not condone
illegality but does not put something very minor in the same category as the very serious issues with which we are dealing.
Mr. Corbyn:
On the issue of guidance, the methods of searching and the methods that will be used to stop people, I hope that the Home Secretary realises that there is an awful lot in what my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) said about the perception of many young people, especially young black people in London, of the police and police powers. I, too, was part of the campaign to get rid of the sus law and I remember very well how that law worked. Large numbers of young black people were stopped, in some cases charged and in some cases convicted, but often simply stopped, intimidated and harassed while going about their normal lawful business in their home areas. Many people expressed to me last night and today the fear that giving the police unlimited powers of stopping and searching on the streets of London would lead to a return to such a feeling among young people towards the police force in London.
Three weeks ago, I had occasion to cross Waterloo bridge by car late on a Friday night--at about 12.30 or 1 o'clock in the morning--when a major stop-and-search operation was going on. Police cars were everywhere, armed units were standing on each side of the bridge, people were being questioned, not very many of whom were crossing the bridge on foot, most cars were being looked at and many were being stopped. As I drove past--I was not stopped--I noticed that more than half the people in the cars who were being questioned were black. Late at night on the streets of London, young black people in cars tend to get stopped and questioned and their cars tend to be searched. That tendency is later reflected in prosecution figures, and so on.
This morning, I was at the Camden Irish centre where its manager told me--I believe him--that young Irish people, many of them poor, and unfortunately homeless in London, feel harassed by the police when they are looking for somewhere to live. They are looking for a home, a room. The manager said--I believe him--that the reintroduction of police powers to stop and search people on the streets will lead to an unwarranted intrusion into those people's lives. He felt that large numbers of them would be stopped over the next few weeks when the power is introduced because London is, of course, a designated area. One must link the measure to the prevention of terrorism Act. Will the Home Secretary explain this point to me--if a young person is stopped one night under the stop-and-search procedure and the police officer decides that there is something suspicious about him, do the provisions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 disappear? Do the provisions of the PTA--including the power to take that person into custody, hold him for 48 hours without access to a solicitor and, on the authority of the Home Secretary, hold him for up to seven days without a solicitor--then apply?
For far too long, constituents have rung me up over the weekend to tell me that they do not know what has happened to a son or daughter who was due to come over from Belfast or Dublin or who was travelling around. After a Kafkaesque series of telephone calls, one is able to elucidate from somebody that that person is being held under the provisions of the PTA. Thousands of people have been held under the provisions of the PTA in the
past 20 years. Very few have been prosecuted as a result, but none has forgotten the experience of being taken into a police station and told that he or she has no rights of access to a solicitor or advice. That is the fear that large numbers of people--particularly within the Irish community in London--have about this draconian legislation.
Mr. Howard:
I shall begin by giving the House the assurance asked for by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael). I certainly intend to issue guidance on the use of these powers following consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers and others. While that is in preparation, I shall issue immediate provisional guidance, and I will also advise the police that the relevant PACE code for stop and search should be applied to all stop-and-search provisions in the Bill. The police have told me that they will apply the PACE code voluntarily until the new provisions are formally brought within its scope. I hope therefore that that assurance satisfies the hon. Gentleman, and that he will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Corbyn:
Will the Home Secretary answer the point that I made concerning what happens to a person who is subsequently arrested under the provisions of the PTA? Do the PACE provisions disappear or do they remain in force? In other words, does a person have access to a solicitor for the stop and search if necessary, despite what might happen under the provisions of the PTA?
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