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Mr. Howard: I was going to deal with the hon. Gentleman's point later, but since he has raised it again, I shall deal with it now. These provisions make absolutely no difference to the interrelationship between the provisions of PACE and the existing provisions of the PTA. If a person is arrested under the provisions of the PTA--because there is a suspicion that he is engaged in the terrorist activities specified in that Act--obviously all the provisions of the PTA apply. If, on the other hand, he is arrested under the provisions of PACE, that Act will apply. That has been part of our law, at least since the Police and Criminal Evidence Act was put on the statute book. It is not affected in the slightest by the provisions of the legislation.
I turn now to the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan). The guidance to which I have just referred will, I believe, be sufficient to ensure that there is no need for the Secretary of State to grant initial authorisation for the use of the powers. The use of the powers will be triggered by immediate operational reasons, so I believe that it is right that the decision to use them should be made by a senior police officer. The need for the Secretary of State to confirm that authorisation within 48 hours and the prior issue of the guidance to which I have referred are adequate safeguards.
On the point raised by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley), the area that will be designated by the police will vary according to the circumstances. It is not something in respect of which I would wish to limit the discretion of the police. There may well be circumstances, such as those identified by
the hon. Gentleman, where the police have specific intelligence that is closely related to a specific location, which will enable them to use their designation powers in a limited area.
I do not propose to deal with the speech made by the hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott). I have nothing to add to the observations of my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley), with which I entirely agree.
The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) asked what would happen if the police, in the exercise of their powers under the Bill, came across evidence of what he described as a minor crime being committed. That will be dealt with by the police, using their discretion, in the way in which they would normally deal with evidence of the commission of such crimes. I do not believe that they should approach these matters in a different way because they happen to come across evidence as a result of the use of the powers that they have been given under the Bill.
The police have discretion in how to proceed in relation to such matters generally. Sometimes they regard it as appropriate to issue a caution and sometimes they regard it as appropriate to prosecute. The police are perfectly capable of exercising that discretion generally. I see no need to inhibit that discretion by virtue of the fact that they will have come across the relevant evidence in the exercise of the powers that the Bill will confer on them.
Mr. Bennett:
Does not the Home Secretary perceive that there is a problem, especially for young people? If a young person knows that he has an illegal substance in his pocket, if an attempt is made by a police officer to stop and search him and if he refuses, resists or does a bunk, under the Bill he will be subject to a fairly serious penalty. However, the likelihood is that, if young people are searched and a substance is found, they will be subject to a much more minor penalty.
Mr. Howard:
I think that the hon. Gentleman does the younger generation an injustice. Most young people, if they were stopped by a police officer and told that the area in which they were present had been designated by a senior police officer as an area in which special powers were available to the police because there was a terrorist threat in that area, would readily understand the position and would not react as the hon. Gentleman suggests. His characterisation of young people does them a serious injustice.
Mr. Peter Bottomley:
I want to follow up my earlier point, with which there was a good deal of sympathy.
Could my right hon. and learned Friend draw to the attention of ACPO the possibility that if police officers exercising powers for one serious purpose discover something that normally would not draw a great deal of attention, it would be wise for the organisation to issue its own guidance? The hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott)--I leave her speech out of account for the moment--referred to the fears about the Bill. Such guidance may stop us ending up with an analysis showing that young people, most of whom are black and some of whom may be involved with illicit substances, find themselves at the wrong end of powers that are directed at potentially far more serious crimes.
Mr. Howard:
I am afraid that I will not give the police such guidance. First, I do not believe that they need it. They are perfectly capable of exercising their discretion in the normal way. Secondly, I believe that it would send a most unfortunate signal on how the Government regard the use of illicit substances. I am sorry to have to tell my hon. Friend that I have no intention of issuing such guidance.
I think that I have dealt with all the points that were made during the debate. I hope that it will be possible for the hon. Members for Cardiff, South and Penarth and for Falkirk, West not to press their amendments.
Mr. Michael:
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for indicating that he will provide the sort of guidance that we seek and that he will seek sensible advice to ensure that the use of these powers commands support and does not run into the problems that hon. Members who have criticised the provisions have feared. In the light of his assurances, I am happy to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Bennett:
I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 8, leave out 'expedient' and insert 'reasonable'.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Janet Fookes):
With this we may discuss the following amendments: No. 39, in page 1, line 8, leave out 'expedient' and insert 'necessary'.
No. 17, in clause 4, page 6, line 5, leave out 'expedient' and insert 'reasonable'.
No. 18, in clause 5, page 6, line 31, leave out 'expedient' and insert 'reasonable'.
Mr. Bennett:
This is a probing amendment that refers to the use of word "expedient", which I think occurs three times in the Bill. I should like the Home Secretary to explain why he chose to use the word "expedient" rather than "reasonable". Much legislation uses the term "reasonable". There is reasonable evidence that the courts
My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) got me two dictionary definitions of "expedient". "Chambers" defines it as:
That is not especially helpful. The "Shorter Oxford Dictionary" defines it as:
Two of that word's uses in the Bill refer to a senior police officer, who may well be able to follow the guidance easily. It would be better to use words that have been used in previous legislation and are well understood rather than introducing a new and emotive word. I am especially concerned about its use in clause 4, which is dealt with by amendment No. 17, where it refers to the use of a cordon. There, it is not a senior officer who must interpret it, but, in certain circumstances, a constable. There is more difficulty with that. Earlier in the debate the need to get a warrant to search premises was mentioned. Once a cordon has been put round, there is no need to get a search warrant. I well understand that if a cordon is set up because there is a suspicion that there is a bomb in the area, it would be stupid to have to get a search warrant.
"profitable or convenient rather than fair or just".
"Useful or politic as opp. to right or just".
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