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Mr. Peter Bottomley: By analogy, the fears of the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) are misplaced. I know that he is a pedagogue of great distinction, but I do not know whether his background is in science. In one part of his speech he sought to prove a negative--that cannot be done.

I refer to the power of a police officer to stop someone in a vehicle and to ask them to undertake a breath test. During my time at the Department of Transport there were 1 million breath tests and not a single person who was stopped complained--not one. In such a case, people's livelihoods may be at stake, so one should not worry too much about leaving these powers in the Bill.

If we require a police officer to believe that an individual has a specified article on them or in their outer garments, we will lose the whole purpose of the provision. We allow a person who is in a vehicle to be searched, and the same sort of provision should apply to a person who is not in a vehicle. Otherwise, the message is given to

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someone who wants to commission, or take part in the preparation of, or commit a terrorist offence that they only have to get out of their vehicle and the police, in effect, cannot touch them. That strikes me as peculiar. If people are not offended by the powers that the police have with respect to vehicles, they should not be offended by the powers that the Bill would give the police with respect to pedestrians in Great Britain.

The hon. Member for Falkirk, West asked how many times material had been found on pedestrians in Northern Ireland. That is an interesting question, but it should not determine what happens now. We were given a clear warning by the events of the Aldwych, let alone by what may have been part of the preparation for the South Quay bomb, which would not necessarily have all come on the low loader. We should learn from the experience that people have suffered and try to ensure that we fill the gaps in the powers of the police.

Mr. Beith: Amendments Nos. 6 and 35 appear in my name. I do not accept that we should delete subsection (3), so I have suggested the addition of some words for clarification.

We are trying to make it possible for a police officer to carry out a general search in circumstances where, because of the threat of terrorist action, it seems advisable to ensure that no one can enter an area in possession of something with which they might commit a terrorist act. Therefore, we propose to remove from a police officer the need to have a specific reason to believe that the person whom he intends to search is carrying something; otherwise it is not a general search. Of course, he is carrying out the search only because someone above him in the hierarchy has reason to believe that a terrorist offence may be committed in the area; otherwise he would not have authorised the general search.

That is why I have suggested that we should free the police officer from the obligation to have grounds for suspecting the presence of articles on any one of the people whom he decides to search. The object is to ensure that the absence of intelligence information suggesting that a particular person has something in his possession does not preclude an officer from carrying out a search that is based more generally on intelligence that something may be afoot in the locality.

I have suggested this wording because it would bring to bear that precise obligation in clause 1--that none of this should happen unless it is suspected that a terrorist offence may be committed and that someone is carrying such material about with them, but that an officer need not have reason to believe that every person he searches might be in that position. My wording assists that understanding of the provision. It may be technically unnecessary, but I hope that the Minister can confirm that that is the intention of the clause.

We are now more than halfway through the time allocated for the Committee stage. Hon. Members have been brief and succinct in their speeches, but the fact that we are still in the middle of the amendments on the first clause and that we have many more clauses to discuss shows that we have been set an impossible task tonight.

Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh): In relation to amendment No. 5, relating to clause 1(3), one of the difficulties about the operation of this type of power is

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that one must try to understand on what basis a person is stopped and searched. If it is not on the basis of intelligence that would automatically lead to suspicion, it is either a random search or not.

The first question we should ask is, what does "random" mean? Is it every fifth car, every second car, every tenth car? What is it? Is it just taking the opportunity of establishing a presence in that area, through which those who are or may be carrying illegal weapons might move very quickly? From the experience of the north of Ireland, the people involved in such activity are adept at reading the random situation.

The second, more important, question is, at what stage after a vehicle or person has been searched does the random element translate into suspicion? There is a rake's progress in relation to that. Those who are young are much more likely to be searched than those who are not young. For those who are young and have other young people--especially young men--travelling in their car, the possibility of being searched increases substantially. I see it happen every day of the week where I live: one can be sure that the cars carrying young men from building sites will be pulled over to the side of the road and that they will be searched. It is not simply young people travelling together who are likely to be stopped and searched: people with Irish accents will almost certainly be subjected to the powers in the legislation. I pose this relevant question: if a man and his wife were driving in their car and four young Irishmen who had just left work on a building site were driving behind them, which car would be most likely to be subjected to a search without any reasonable suspicion?

11.30 pm

Leaving aside Irish accents, what about those young people who are a different colour? A constable may be tempted to apply the powers in the legislation not because there is reasonable suspicion regarding any element of terrorism, but because of other factors pertaining to the community. There is the potential for a combustible and very dangerous situation. The stop-and-search power and the power to detain have caused the most problems of all those which apply in the north of Ireland. The generation subjected to those powers--young people who have never known a time when such powers did not exist--is most susceptible to the terrorist propaganda. In many instances, they have suffered at the hands of this sort of legislation and they have turned towards terrorism--or at least acquiesced to terrorism--as a result.

Mr. Trimble: I believe that the hon. Gentleman may be erring in drawing his comparisons, as the circumstances in south Armagh may not be quite the same as those in London. The social and political attitudes evinced by the populations of those two areas may be different also. He may not have heard the figures that were given earlier in the debate regarding searches conducted under section 13A--and the provision is an extension along similar lines. We were told that under that section 8,000 vehicles had been searched with scarcely any complaints. The hon. Gentleman's fears may be a little overdone.

Mr. Mallon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for reminding me that the same attitudes do not apply in south Armagh

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and in London--and long may that remain so. However, I assure the House that this sort of legislation is the surest way of promoting and creating a similar reaction in London. Year after year and decade after decade, I have been struck by the idea that we are lucky in the north of Ireland because sooner or later we shall be in a position to abolish that sort of emergency legislation. However, we should not imagine that the residual effects will not be felt in this country. The biggest single danger--to which the hon. Gentleman has drawn attention--is that the legislation will be exploited here for various social reasons, including race, colour and class. I see it every day. We are lucky because, sooner or later, when we have the good sense to reach an agreement, there will be an end to the conflict in the north of Ireland and there will be an end to the emergency provisions Act. We shall then have the opportunity to make sure that Britain does not have to live with such legislation as its residue never leaves: once the need for it is created here, it will remain--that is one of the greatest dangers in clause 1.

I see the legislation working every day. I drove to the latest proximity talks--or preliminary talks, as they were called--along exactly the same road, through exactly the same checkpoint in exactly the same car for seven days running. This is where the random element comes in: on each occasion every other car was waved through, but mine was stopped. I was asked, "What is your name, sir?" Very courteously, I gave my name. I was then asked, "Where are you going, sir?" Very courteously, I told them where I was going.

Mr. Trimble: The hon. Gentleman was very wise to keep away from trouble.

Mr. Mallon: I am a mature person, not a young person who might be susceptible to that. If that can happen to someone such as myself, of mature age and, I hope, a little sense, what combustible circumstances will be created among young people day in and day out?

I know from personal experience that Provos have been created by that very piece of legislation. I know it because I know them. I have talked to them. I knew them before they were Provos. I talked to them in prison after they became terrorists and I know the reasons that triggered--if the House will forgive the pun--their reactions. There were two factors, one of which was the power to stop and search. In any circumstances, a body search is a humiliation. In a public place, it is even more of a humiliation. Under the terms of the legislation, to have someone remove one's shoes, jacket and outer clothing is a double humiliation. That is how the searches will be carried out and that humiliation produces a reaction. The reaction will express itself differently here: it will produce racial and social tension in places such as Kilburn, where the Irish population will be saturated with searches. Once the police are given such powers without recourse even to reasonable suspicion, the whole integrity of the law will be diminished, and when that happens, society in general does not have the protection of that law.

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