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Mr. Corbyn: I hope that the House has taken note of what was said by the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) about the effects of a stop-and-search policy. I strongly support amendment No. 5, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) as it addresses a double problem in the measure.
First, the police will be protected from any complaint about a totally erroneous and harassing stop and search because they do not have to provide any evidence whatever of the need to stop and search somebody. Secondly, the meansure will create the utmost anger and ill feeling within the Irish community. A young Irish person living in London, perhaps working with one or two others on building industry jobs and driving around London in a Ford Transit van, will find himself constantly being stopped and harassed as soon as the police hear his accent. I have met many people who are very angry at the attitude of the police. As soon as they hear an Irish accent enunciated by a building worker, that becomes the ground for investigation, complaint and demanding to see documents. This new power gives the police carte blanche to stop people for no obvious reason.
Even if the legislation is designed to elicit the co-operation of the community in achieving its purpose, I believe that it will operate in exactly the opposite way. It will not be just Irish building workers and people with Irish accents who are stopped. Under the legislation, the police do not have to give any reason for stopping someone. So next it will be young black people walking along the street whom the police may or may not like, or whom the police may suspect of something else, or to whom the police may want to give a hard time; they will be stopped and searched and there will be no comeback for them.
Mr. Trimble:
They have a remedy at law.
Mr. Corbyn:
The hon. Gentleman expresses his opinion from a very sedentary position--he is sitting on the floor. My reading of the amendment suggests that my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, West would provide a remedy in the law, but the legislation itself ensures that there is no such remedy, as the police do not have to give reasons for stopping and searching people.
Surely in a civilised society which believes in due process, the police have to have a reason for doing something. I hope that the House will therefore heed my hon. Friend's view, well supported as he was by the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh, who has explained exactly how such powers can alienate an entire community and have effects that are the opposite of those intended.
Ms Abbott:
I support the amendments, especially amendment No. 5. At the heart of my concern about the Bill is the giving of fresh powers to the police to stop and search people at random.
Subsection (3) states:
for the commission of acts of terrorism. That process is wholly subjective and arbitrary. We have heard from the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) about the consequences of such legislation for community relations in Northern Ireland. His experience cannot be bettered. What is more, just as that type of arbitrary power to stop and search has poisoned relations between young people and the authorities in Northern Ireland, so it will poison relations between young people and the authorities in London.
It will not do to say that there are not many complaints, or that young people will understand. All that we know about the exercise of such powers is that they create tensions, hostility and resentment. If this House really wants to fight terrorism, we must all accept that, ultimately, the job is one of winning hearts and minds. We shall not win them by giving the police arbitrary powers of this kind which, all the evidence tells us, inevitably lead to friction between the police and the community, especially young people--whatever their colour.
Mr. Kirkhope:
This has been a useful debate, but I am rather disappointed at some of the negative remarks made by several hon. Members. One has only to listen to the views of the hon. Members for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) and for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) to realise that, much as we may not wish to have these powers and much as we may restrict them, they are shown to be effective in Northern Ireland, and we believe that they will help us in the fight against terrorism on the mainland as well.
Amendment No. 5, tabled by the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan), would have the effect of removing clause 1(3) which, as we have heard, will allow the searching of a pedestrian by a constable
that could be used for
As has been mentioned, the Bill as drafted mirrors the existing provision in section 13A(4) of the PTA, which allows a constable to search vehicles, their occupants and the bags of pedestrians without specific grounds for suspicion. It would plainly not make any sense for the similar powers in the Bill to be operated in completely different ways. As I have said, the existing stop-and-search powers in section 13A of the Prevention of Terrorism Act (Temporary Provisions)1989 are subject to close safeguards and so will the new stop-and-search power be.
I mentioned the authorisation of a senior police officer, in this case an assistant chief constable. In addition to the existing safeguards, the new powers to search pedestrians will lapse after 48 hours if the Home Secretary does not endorse them. By requiring grounds for suspicion, as has been suggested by the hon. Member for Falkirk, West, amendment No. 5 would seriously weaken a critical part of the provision: the deterrent effect. I am sure that hon. Members from Northern Ireland are aware of the importance of that and, indeed, the hon. Member for Upper Bann referred to it earlier. Removing the deterrent effect would have a serious impact which we believe would be very unfortunate. A terrorist cannot be allowed to know that he can walk down the street with inconspicuous devices in his pocket without any
possibility of the police giving him even the most cursory search. It is essential that the police are able to take steps to prevent attacks carried out by terrorists, whether on foot or in vehicles.
Ms Abbott:
The Under-Secretary of State has commented on a number of interventions by hon. Members, but I hope that he will not complete his remarks without commenting on the speech made by the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) who, from his experience of his part of Great Britain, made the interesting observation that precisely such provisions had created terrorists.
Mr. Kirkhope:
I appreciate that the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) has his views on the subject, and I have listened to them with great care. Perhaps what he was saying--and I do not agree--was that once such powers are put in place, they will never be removed. That is, in my view, an especially negative comment. Our hope is that these powers will be removed, that we shall have peace and that we shall not need the powers to curb or deter terrorism. Unfortunately, we need to do that now and we have to make the powers as effective as possible.
The only people who would benefit from amendment No. 5 are terrorists, who would be able to walk the streets with impunity. That is why I cannot accept the amendment. As for amendments Nos. 6 and 35, tabled by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), they would add nothing to the meaning of clause 1. On a simple point of logic, since the power is to be available and should be available regardless of suspicion, it does not seem to matter on what that suspicion could or should centre. On that basis, I must ask the House to reject the amendments.
Mr. Canavan:
I should like to respond briefly to the Minister's disgraceful comment that the only people who would benefit from my amendment would be terrorists. That is absolute nonsense. Many people going about their lawful business, going to and from work, going shopping, visiting relatives or even going to their own residences will suffer at the least a great deal of inconvenience or possibly worse with harassment by the police because of the legislation. My amendment would have provided at least some benefit to those innocent people.
I do not want to waste precious time by pressing the amendment to a Division. However, I certainly do not wish to withdraw it because the Minister has not made a logical argument against it.
Amendment negatived.
Mr. Straw:
I beg to move amendment No. 42, in page 1, line 25, at end insert--
My colleagues and the Committee will recall that clause 1 (4) states:
"A constable may exercise his powers under this section whether or not he has any grounds for suspecting the presence of articles"
"whether or not he has any grounds for suspecting the presence of articles"
"the commission, preparation or instigation of . . . acts of terrorism."
'(5) For the purposes of subsection (4) above, ''in public'' shall include any public highway and any other area accessible to the public.'.
"Nothing in this section authorises a constable to require a person to remove any of his clothing in public other than any headgear, footwear, outer coat, jacket or gloves."
2 Apr 1996 : Column 278
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