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Mr. Michael: I beg to move amendment No. 53, in page 2, line 35, at end insert--
'(12) If, following the exercise of the powers contained in section 13A above or this section a person is arrested and charged with an offence other than an offence under this Act or otherwise connected with terrorism, the fact and nature of the initial exercise of stop and search powers shall be made known to the court.'
The hon. Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) touched on such reassurance to some extent. Indeed, he went rather further by suggesting that the police should not prosecute for less serious offences that are discovered as a result of powers used to try to detect or prevent terrorism. The Home Secretary rejected that general approach, and I believe that there are some difficulties with it, as I think the hon. Member for Eltham would acknowledge.
Our amendment would require simply that the court should be aware when evidence arises from the exercise of the powers provided in the Bill. The court would, therefore, be able to take that fact into consideration if appropriate. Magistrates or judges would be well able to take a balanced view and to make a judgment on whether the circumstances were appropriate and should affect the disposal of the case before them.
The amendment would certainly put the matter on the record. It would supplement the promises already made by the Home Secretary about monitoring the use of the provisions and it would ensure that the knock-on effect from using the powers was transparent. That would offer reassurance to people because one cannot misuse a power or smuggle in prosecutions if one tells the court the nature of the circumstances in which evidence has been garnered. The amendment would have no detrimental effect on the police or the prosecution service in terms of ensuring that a breach of the law was brought before the court, but it would ensure, through transparency, that there was reassurance for those who fear that the provisions might be misused.
I have said that I do not fear misuse of the Bill. There is always a danger that the police will misuse their powers or go beyond them; it happens from time to time. It is regrettable when it happens and we need to have safeguards in place to avoid the misuse of powers as far as possible. That is in the best interests of the public and the police, who need the powers to do their job properly.
I hope that the Minister will accept that we are suggesting a proposal that provides an element of transparency, but that would not downgrade the ability of the police to use evidence that is gained as a result of the exercise of the new powers. That transparency would reassure those who fear the possibility of misuse of the powers. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us about the approach that will be taken on the matter.
Mr. Peter Bottomley:
The hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) has put the case fairly, as he acknowledged that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary did in responding to the point made by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett), with inadequate reinforcement by me.
I go back to my roads experience to argue against the point that I made earlier. I am aware that the police find that when they stop people in vehicles for one reason or another, a high proportion of offences is detected at certain times of night, many of which are not linked to the reason for stopping the vehicle in the first place. A good point has been made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary.
Having said that, I think that my right hon. and learned Friend has taken a purist position. If one is trying to protect the vulnerable, whether or not they have been involved in an offence, one needs to be careful about the impact. Equally, I do not agree with the purist view, taken by some Labour Members, that the police should be able to charge people only if they have stopped them with a particular offence in mind. The culture within the police, within the courts and within the Crown Prosecution Service, therefore, needs to be not just accepted, but worked for.
Mr. Mallon:
I am in favour of this wise amendment. I knew that I would find something about which I could agree with the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman. If, as it must be, the operation of these powers is to be assessed, this surely is one of the ways in which it can be done. Ultimately, it is probably the only way.
I am not able to furnish the figures because of the speed with which we had to come here and prepare for the debate, but if the Minister were to examine the figures for people charged under the emergency provisions Act in the north of Ireland, he would find that, in the past four years, well over 80 per cent. of cases involved charges in connection with parking motor cars in a place designated as illegal from a security point of view. It is essential that an amendment such as this is accepted so that an assessment can be made of how such legislation is operating.
Having said that, we shall find that it is a two-edged weapon. Inevitably, a substantial number of non-terrorist cases will be established as a result of this anti-terrorist legislation. The case will be made that such stop-and-search powers should be part of the usual arrangements because of their very success. Even accepting that element of it, the legislation must be assessed by Parliament when that is required by Parliament. It must be assessed by the Home Office at all stages and it must be assessed so that the public can be reassured that it is being used in the proper way. I support the amendment.
Mr. Kirkhope:
I appreciate the remarks that have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) and by the hon. Members for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) and for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon). However, it is hard to understand how a person could be dealt with in a court without the original stop and search being made clear in the prosecution evidence. It would be up to the court to decide whether such evidence was admissible in any particular case. The amendment's purpose is met by existing arrangements. Despite all the persuasive and interesting arguments, it is not necessary. For that straightforward reason, I ask the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Michael:
The Minister needs to take a little more note of the issues that have been raised. It is important in practice--we will keep an eye on this--that reassurance is offered that the powers will be used for the intention for which they were given by Parliament, and not abused. That is why we tabled the amendment. The Minister and the Home Secretary have acknowledged the importance of that, as have hon. Members on both sides of the House in this short debate. A marker has been put down and in the light of that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made, and Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:--
The Committee divided: Ayes 162, Noes 20.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly agreed to.
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
It being more than two hours after the commencement of proceedings in Committee, The Chairman put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day].
Clauses 2 to 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
AYES
Alexander, Richard
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Beggs, Roy
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Beresford, Sir Paul
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Elletson, Harold
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gallie, Phil
Garnier, Edward
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Gorst, Sir John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hicks, Robert
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Leigh, Edward
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McCrea, The Reverend William
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maginnis, Ken
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, Rt Hon John
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paisley, The Reverend Ian
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rendel, David
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Sweeney, Walter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Trimble, David
Viggers, Peter
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Willetts, David
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Richard Ottaway and
Mr. Gary Streeter.
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Barnes, Harry
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cunningham, Roseanna
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Godman, Dr Norman A
Livingstone, Ken
Loyden, Eddie
McGrady, Eddie
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
Mallon, Seamus
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Salmond, Alex
Sedgemore, Brian
Skinner, Dennis
Mr. Max Madden and
Mr. Dennis Canavan.
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