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Mr. Gareth Wardell: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Richards: With respect, I have only a few minutes left and I want to cover many more points.
The hon. Gentleman asked me sincerely what I would do if hospitals did not provide the information that they should be providing. Clearly, my officials and I will consider and monitor that closely. He asked about the difference in assessing short-stay and long-stay residents. Local authorities can use the same financial assessment and capital limits for both, but anyone who stays less than eight weeks does not have to be assessed. The local authority can set what one might describe as a reasonable charge.
The Department of Social Security will be using two sets of limits. People who go into residential care for only short periods will not be reassessed for income support based on the higher capital limits. It would be disruptive to reassess them for income support at such frequent intervals. The hon. Gentleman raised some more points, on which I will write to him, but I must deal with other points.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, West raised the issue of 40,000 houses sold per year. I do not know where he got that figure from. I am not aware that it is a Government figure. I should like to know where he got it from to find out whether we can attach any credence it.
The hon. Member for Darlington did not, of course, raise the issue of funding, although he came up with a four-point plan and talked about planning, revaluation and changes after only three years. I know that, by diktat of the Leader of the Opposition, he is not allowed to do that, but the British people are entitled to know what budgetary or financial resource changes would be implied were there to be a Labour Government.
We are committed to ensuring choice in community care. Choice underpins our reforms. We do not mean choice at any price. Public funds are limited and choice must be balanced against cost. But we do mean people having a real say in where they receive the care that they need. The direction on choice was introduced specifically to give people that say. Local authorities need to take that carefully into account when they plan their use of their community care budgets.
If any individual is not satisfied with his or her care arrangements, he or she has, of course, the right to take that up through the complaints procedure. We have made it clear to authorities that we expect them to have complaints procedures which people know about and which are easy to use.
Community care is all about individuals. It is about making sure that individuals receive the care and support that they need. But it is also about making sure that people who need community care and their carers are involved more widely in helping to shape the services provided to their communities.
Mr. Morgan:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Richards:
No, I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman.
I am very pleased that we have been able to provide the extra help with regard to capital disregard for people in residential and nursing homes. We know that it has been widely welcomed. We have two aims--to help people who have worked hard and saved prudently, and to avoid putting too heavy a burden on taxpayers. The new limits strike the right balance.
The resources--
It being one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Madam Deputy Speaker put the Question, pursuant to Order [29 March].
Question agreed to.
Resolved,
Madam Deputy Speaker then put the remaining Question required to be put at that hour.
Resolved,
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North):
I am very pleased to have another debate on Government policy towards Antarctica. I am grateful that it is at a reasonable hour because, on other occasions, such debates have taken place in the middle of the night. I have a personal fascination for the subject and that is why I have applied for previous Adjournment debates on it.
There have been two recent pieces of legislation on Antarctica. The first was the Antarctic Minerals Act 1989, which was strongly opposed by the Opposition because it envisaged the possibility of mineral exploration in Antarctica for commercial gain, which was completely at variance with the earlier 1959 treaty. I am glad to say that that legislation has now been superseded by the Antarctic Act 1994, which gives effect to the environmental protocol signed in Madrid in 1991. That was an enormous step forward.
Many people might ask why the House of Commons is debating Antarctica and what relevance it has to the everyday lives of ordinary people. I can understand why people might ask that question, but the answer is simple. We can study in Antarctica a continent in more or less its pristine beauty. We can also study at first hand the effects of gross exploitation of, in particular, the fauna of the continent and the seas around it, and the destruction of the large whale population within the area, a destruction that has meant that now only the Minke whales have a population of anything like the natural size of 100 years ago. Every other species of whale is grossly threatened. In some cases, the numbers surviving are so small that it is difficult to see how they can breed successfully in the future without developing genetic disorders.
In the past, the area has been over-fished. That is now more or less under control, but the vast amount of krill that have been taken out of Antarctica is a cause for concern because that has a knock-on effect on the natural life cycle of so many other mammals and fish within the seas around Antarctica.
Aside from the carnage of the whale population and the destruction of so many beautiful mammals, Antarctica has been a place of inspiration to many people, not only scientific explorers. The wonderful poem "The Ancient Mariner" is about a journey to the Antarctic, and is a description of the beauties of the southern ocean.
My purpose in this debate is to recognise what has gone before. Even at the height of the cold war, during the 1957 International Geophysical Year, countries were able to get together and consider ways of protecting and preserving Antarctica as a place of beauty and peace. In 1959, the treaty was signed at Washington. The document is held by the United States Government in Washington, as host to the signatories. It is still a relevant document which protects the continent in its natural form and beauty from war and military presence. That was an enormous step forward.
Moves were made by a number of people who had an eye, albeit recognising the enormous technical difficulties, to the possibilities of exploitation of minerals in Antarctica. There are possibly vast mineral resources
there. That was what was behind the Antarctic Minerals Act 1989 and the interests of a number of international mining and oil companies. We have to recognise that public opinion and the campaigns around the world in favour of an Antarctic world park have had considerable impact. A number of Governments--perhaps surprising Governments in some cases--supported the concept of a world park and a place of preservation and peace.
The Madrid protocol was finally agreed in 1991. There was a great deal in it. I shall not quote it all, but I should like to mention a few points from it. Crucially, it said that there should be a moratorium on all mining or mineral exploration activities for at least 50 years. It is not a 50-year moratorium. It is 50 years in its initial stage. I would not want any long-sighted executives of oil or mining companies to be salivating in offices at the thought of mining exploration in 50 years. I hope that there will never be any mining exploration in the Antarctic, and the environmental protocol looked to that.
The protocol also confirmed the permanent protection of the environment and flora and fauna of the continent. That is important. Many people believe that Antarctica is a huge wilderness, and therefore that there is no great threat to it, but it has a delicate ecosystem. It is not a place of high precipitation--indeed, there is very little. There is a great deal of snow and ice blowing about and there are enormous ranges of temperatures and desperate cold, but it is a fragile ecosystem.
As it is so cold most of the time, the speed of biodegradability is slow, so environmental damage from oil spills or pollution of any sort takes far longer to be corrected by any natural process than it would in a tropical, sub-tropical or temperate climate such as we live in. An important part of the protocol established the principle of environmental impact assessment of all visits to the Antarctic by anyone--scientific researchers, tourists or whoever else.
Greenpeace has done a great deal of work on the Antarctic and has campaigned vigorously. Greenpeace International should be commended for the work that it has done internationally. Its Antarctic campaigner, Iain Redditch, who is based in Amsterdam, should be congratulated on the work that he has done to persuade so many Governments to speed up the ratification process.
In 1994-95, the Greenpeace ship toured several Antarctic bases--not by any means in a spirit of hostility. It gave due notice to the bases' occupants and sought to examine what was happening, to check the effects of the 1991 environmental protocol and to discover what the bases were doing to clean up their act. It visited eight stations, which were staffed by people from Brazil, Poland, Peru, South Korea, Argentina, Chile, China and Russia. Argentina and Chile staffed two bases each. Greenpeace would have liked to visit more bases, but the process takes time and the journey is difficult.
The Greenpeace report said:
It was especially scathing about the conditions at the Chinese station, where a large amount of rubbish had been dumped and which was causing environmental damage. It is important that we recognise the importance of having environmental impact assessments and continuing inspection and monitoring of what happens at the bases.
If we are to achieve the intended effect of the 1959 treaty and of the 1991 Madrid protocol, the question of ratification of the treaty is important. There are 26 signatory nations to the treaty. They are "consultative parties" in the wording of the treaty and 20 have ratified the Madrid protocol, including Britain. There are six still to go. Four of them look as though they will ratify in the near future with no great problem envisaged.
The greatest delay involves Russia and Japan. I would be grateful if the Minister could say what pressures the Foreign Office and British diplomats in those countries are applying to make it clear that the House has passed the Antarctic Act 1994. We have ratified the treaty and want it to be ratified by all the nations concerned. Once 24 nations have ratified it, I should have thought that the idea that Russia and Japan are the slowest would embarrass them. I should like to hear that the British Government will do their utmost to encourage them not to be way behind everyone else in ratifying.
The Russian political system is in turmoil and there is uncertainty about what will happen there. In Japan, there is a problem that is not linked to the Antarctic treaty--its predilection for defying the International Whaling Commission by continuing its so-called scientific whaling of Minke whales. It took 300 from Antarctic waters in the past year. There is an erroneous linkage of the two issues. The environmental protection of the Antarctic stands alone, and it is vital that Japan ratifies the treaty.
My second main question involves the establishment of the secretariat envisaged in the 1991 Madrid protocol. It is essential that a secretariat for the Antarctic should be set up so that there is a central point of contact for discussion, for environmental impact assessment studies to be lodged and for monitoring the future of the Antarctic and the growing number of people who seek to visit it, and the possible dangers that go with that. That is no minor point. It is important that we get the secretariat up and running as soon as possible.
I should not have thought that the issue of where the secretariat is to be sited would be greatly controversial, but it appears to have become so. Many treaty nations feel that it should be sited in a gateway nation to the Antarctic. The gateway nations are Chile, Argentina, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. There is a considerable head of steam among the majority of treaty nations to site the secretariat in Argentina. Unfortunately, I understand from previous parliamentary answers that I have received from the Minister that the British Government are not disposed towards it being sited there because they do not want it sited in a country that has conflicting pre-1959 claims to Antarctic lands.
As the claims are held in abeyance for the duration of the treaty and the protocols following on from it, the conflicting claims are somewhat academic in many ways. Exactly the same argument about conflicting claims could apply to most other signatory nations. Argentina has not opposed the convention on the preservation of marine life in the Antarctic being based in Australia. So I hope that the British Government will accept that it is important to get the secretariat up and running, and that a majority of treaty nations support it being sited in Argentina.
During a recent visit to this country of the Argentine Foreign Minister, I took part in one of the discussions with him and mentioned the issue. I understand that,
at a later meeting with the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the establishment of the secretariat was discussed with the Argentine Foreign Minister. I would be obliged if the Minister could tell us exactly what went on at those discussions. Should President Menem of Argentina visit this country, that would presumably be one of the issues that would be discussed with him. It is important that we have a sensible relationship with Argentina. It is not particularly helpful if we adopt a dog-in-the-manger attitude towards the location of the secretariat.
British standing on the Antarctic is good. The British Antarctic Survey has conducted high-quality scientific and biological research in the area for many years. It has produced high-quality reports and has a very high standing indeed. The work done there by Joe Farman and others in discovering the hole in the ozone layer over the Antarctic has worldwide implications.
However, British standing has been diminished by the Government's attitude to the location of the secretariat. I hope that the Minister will recognise that the British Government can do quite a lot in that area to ensure that the secretariat is established and up and running as soon as possible. It is some years since the Madrid protocol and the Antarctic Act. It is time that we moved on and got the secretariat working.
Thirdly, article 16 of the protocol, on liability for damage and destruction that happens in Antarctica, has been under discussion for about four years. I well remember that, when the Antarctic Bill was being pushed through the House by the right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling)--as a private Member's Bill with Government support--liability for damage and destruction was debated extensively in the Standing Committee. We discussed whether an expedition's individual members were responsible for any damage, or whether it should be the host country of the expedition. We also discussed what should happen if a ship sank or an aircraft crashed in the Antarctic.
The question of liability has to be sorted out. The growth of tourism in the area has been considerable. Until a secretariat is established and we have total adherence to the guidelines on Antarctic tourism and non-governmental organisation activities adopted in Seoul, Korea in April 1994, the dangers of damage to the environment and the need to clean it up are considerable. I would be grateful if the Minister could let me know what is being done on that question and how it will be sorted out.
In four years of informal meetings, why have non-governmental organisations been continually excluded from the discussions, when they have shown that they have an enormous and responsible interest in the Antarctic and much expertise to contribute to the discussions?
My fourth question for the Minister concerns the future of the Faraday base, which was one of the bases owned and run by the British Antarctic Survey. It was due to be closed and demolished and the equipment brought back to this country. Instead, there was an agreement to transfer the base and its equipment to the Government of the Ukraine, which was a major contributor to the former
Soviet Union's scientific efforts in Antarctica. They felt that it would be useful to have a base--and they have now got the base, which is a good thing.
The Ukraine agreed to continue to produce the meteorological information that had been collected at the base--it will be handed over to the British Antarctic Survey. I trust that--like all scientific information collected in Antarctica--there will be the normal degree of transparency and there will be a widespread publication of the results. It is good that the Government of the Ukraine have the base and that it is working.
However, the Ukraine has serious problems in relation to Government resources and spending. The base would have had to have been upgraded considerably had the British Antarctic Survey kept it. Is Britain using its expertise and assisting in ensuring that the base is upgraded so that waste disposal systems, fuel systems and energy systems are the best and the safest, and cause the least possible environmental damage? Those issues are extremely important in such a fragile ecosystem.
Antarctica is a beautiful place, but it is also a great weather vane and a source of great information that is of value to the rest of the world. Earlier, I mentioned the work done by Farman and others at the British Antarctic Survey in discovering the hole in the ozone layer. Had the British Antarctic Survey not been doing that work and had other scientists not been doing work on air pollution and sunlight within the Antarctic, we may not have known the disastrous effects of chlorofluorocarbons within our atmosphere and of the continual chemical process that is set off in the upper atmosphere by the release of chlorine gas.
However, we would have known about the growth of skin cancers in the southern continents--in Chile, in Argentina, and in Australia in particular. We are now finding out the effects of ozone depletion in the northern hemisphere. That had the knock-on effect of the Montreal protocol on the phasing out of CFCs. I wish it was being done more quickly and that it had been done immediately, but at least the information was there in the first place. Perhaps the world woke up and recognised that there were limits to the amount of pollution that it can put into the atmosphere.
One can drill into the Antarctic ice, take out an ice core and measure what the exact state of the world's atmosphere was like at the time of the Romans, at the time of Christ and at the time of the Norman conquests. One can measure exactly what the air was like, one can see the differing levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, one can see the differing levels of pollution, and one can see the effects and dangers of global warming. It is important that we are able to do that. I refer also to the current process of melting off parts of the Antarctic ice cover--all sorts of things can be measured.
It is important that we recognise that Antarctica is a place for the whole world; that it is a place of international importance and heritage. We would not have got this far if people had not wanted to undertake scientific research there. Above all, people have not said that this is a place that we can exploit and destroy--instead, they have said that this is a place that we want to protect in all its beauty and learn lessons from. Many environmental groups, particularly Greenpeace International, have campaigned on behalf of the Antarctic. That has been a welcome and an enormous contribution.
That the Special Grant Report (No. 17) (House of Commons Paper No. 299), which was laid before this House on 18th March, be approved.
3 Apr 1996 : Column 479
That the Special Grant Report (Wales) 1996 (House of Commons Paper No. 297), which was laid before this House on 18th March, be approved.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
9.26 pm
"Overall, Greenpeace found that over three years after the signing of the Madrid Protocol on Environmental Protection, countries with Antarctic bases are continuing to violate the Madrid Protocol's provisions, and many working on the continent are unaware of the Madrid Protocol's requirements."
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