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Mr. Hogg: I accept that that is the authentic voice of Labour, but I could not commend it to the House or to the country. We are in the business of trying to identify those links in the chain that are essential to the survival of a healthy British beef industry. It is for that reason that we have come to the particular decisions that I have announced today--for example, about renderers and the abattoirs, which satisfy the requirement precisely.
Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North): Does my right hon. and learned Friend have the agreement of our European masters that the top-up for the steer aged 30 months plus, which is a state aid, should go ahead? If no such agreement is forthcoming, what will happen? Now that we have a vast plethora of money from the British taxpayer, what will be the net contribution overall from the European Union, which caused this great crisis? Will it be about 10 per cent?
Mr. Hogg: My hon. Friend is right to say that I have introduced a number of measures which are properly classified as state aids. They need to be notified to the European Union in the ordinary way. Informally they have been, and formally they will be, and I anticipate agreement.
On the second part of his question, on the rebate, my hon. Friend is right. Because of the impact of the rebate, on the margins United Kingdom taxpayers pay a high proportion of additional expenditure in the United Kingdom, albeit that it comes in the first instance from European Union funds. That is not an argument against it, but it is an argument in favour of making the position clear.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon):
Will the Minister give some assurance that the historic market supplement prices may be available for longer than six months in order to get long-term confidence? Will the £100 calf
Mr. Hogg:
With regard to dairy calves, the hon. Gentleman should know that the £103 is a payment to the slaughterer and there will be deductions from that by the slaughterer so that the farmer will in fact receive less than £103. With regard to the top-up, at the moment we have in mind that the top-up should be payable for some six months. The justification for that is that it is possible in our judgment in respect of beasts under the age of 24 months so to alter the management of the beasts that they can be brought to market for beef purposes under the age of 30 months. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will think that that is a good justification.
With regard to negotiations within the European Union, if I am to be absolutely honest, I believe that the Commissioner has a much clearer view of the problems than the member states. I have found much more sense coming from the Commission than from many of the Ministers at the Agriculture Council.
Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater):
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there are obviously enormous benefits to come from the lifting of the European ban, but it cannot be at any price; and, since British beef is safe, it would be simply intolerable if we engaged in a massive slaughter of beasts known to be perfectly healthy? Is my right hon. and learned Friend giving any consideration to whether beasts that are aged over 30 months, which for the moment are not to go into the food chain, could be slaughtered and the meat stored against the time when greater scientific knowledge might give the reassurance necessary for its perfectly safe consumption?
Mr. Hogg:
I can well understand my right hon. Friend's concern about the impact of a massive--if I might use his word--culling policy, and that is not in our mind. The question is whether it is possible, by a carefully targeted culling policy which would substantially reduce the predicted numbers of confirmed BSE cases, to come forward with a policy that would be acceptable to the industry and the House. That is something that I should like to work away at, because to accelerate the decline in BSE in the British herd is intrinsically worth doing if it can be done in a sustainable and sensible way.
On the suggestion of putting beef into cold storage for long periods, I would prefer the measures that I have outlined.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow):
What action is being taken on the science of all this? Ministers will know that I have sent them evidence from the New Scientist of experiments such as those at Ames, Iowa, where scrapie was injected into bovines, with the result that, although there was illness, it was not at all related to BSE. What is being done about protein 130 and 131 experiments, and, indeed, prions in feed, and the possible linkage
Mr. Hogg:
I certainly hope that the root causes are being addressed. We are spending a great deal of money on research into the condition, and on ways to develop, for example, live tests and other ways to determine whether a beast is affected. The Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee is the main source of scientific advice, and has proved of enormous importance in this area. I shall explore whether it is possible in a sensible way to summarise in a brief paper the main avenues of scientific investigation at the moment, and shall see whether we can put that in the Library. That is not a commitment to do so, but it is a commitment to see whether it can sensibly be done.
Mr. Paul Marland (West Gloucestershire):
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the beef industry will give a warm welcome to his statement this afternoon, not only because of the careful way in which he thought it through and the action that he proposes, but because of the way in which he has not allowed his head to be turned in the past few weeks by some of the hysterical comments from elsewhere?
In view of the statement and the steps that will be taken to reassure confidence in British beef, how long does my right hon. and learned Friend think it will be before the European Commission reconsiders the ban on British beef, especially in the light of some of the comments that have been made by European Commissioners and the fact that, the longer the situation has gone on, the more evidence has been produced in this country--I found some myself in Gloucester market last week--that BSE exists in Europe?
Mr. Hogg:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind support. He is right that BSE exists in Europe, and I suspect that it exists in much more substantial quantities than has been formally admitted by the respective Governments in Europe.
I find the remarks made by Commissioner Fischler extremely helpful because they reinforce the points that we wish to make in the legal action. We will press ahead in our attempts to get the ban lifted--and the national bans as well--with all possible dispatch, but I do not think it sensible at the moment for me to express an end date. Therefore, I cannot help my hon. Friend on that point.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington):
How will the animal passport system work in the context of the national database, which the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Jackson) called for? That is the way in which the Dutch organise their market, and it was also the subject of a Select Committee recommendation. Is it not time that we go down that route, and do so rapidly, as the hon. Gentleman said? What will happen to the beef that the Community has accepted should go into intervention?
Mr. Hogg:
On the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question, it depends on whether there is a market for the beef. I do not exclude the possibility that ultimately it will be destroyed. That would be lamentable, because in truth that beef is safe, but consumption depends on a willingness to buy, and that in turn depends on consumer confidence.
On the first part of the question, the modalities need to be further explored, but the hon. Gentleman is right to emphasise the importance of traceability and passports. We hope to have firm proposals in place by 1 June. We shall consult the industry to ensure that what we have in mind is a sensible scheme.
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale):
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his statement, and for listening so carefully to the many representations relating to the issues in it which have been made over the past two or three weeks. Is it not clear, however, that what he has said this afternoon involves not just ensuring the recovery of confidence in beef in Britain, but addressing the problem of the European ban? I am sure that farmers will welcome the Government's announcement that they will press a legal challenge against it, but has not the ban itself become the problem? What will other member states do to deal with the problem of BSE in those states, whose existence is recognised by consumers throughout Europe, by implementing the sort of measures that we now have in Britain?
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