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Mr. William Ross: My hon. Friend will be well aware that IRA-Sinn Fein say constantly that there must be forensic examination of any weapons that are ever surrendered. Will my hon. Friend dwell for a moment on the reasons for that? Is it that the IRA might be trying to hold back some weapons that have been identified? If it handed over some weapons, it could say, "That is all." If there were to be no forensic examination, there would be no means of identifying the weapons that had been used.
Mr. Trimble: My hon. Friend makes a good point. It will be interesting to hear what the Government have to say. There must be a limited amnesty when it comes to the possession of weapons that are decommissioned--it must be tightly limited. For the reasons that my hon. Friend has set out, we must be careful about conceding to absence of examination. The object of the exercise is to ensure that weapons held by paramilitary organisations are decommissioned and that there is total disarmament of those organisations. The purpose of the verification procedure is to ensure that we achieve that objective. In that context, forensic examination is something that we should bear in mind.
The issue of a forum has given rise to unnecessary controversy. It should not be regarded as controversial. Indeed, it should be understood as a key element that will, I hope, make a fruitful contribution to the process that lies ahead. It is necessary to have a body in which public debate can take place. There will not be confidence in the community in Northern Ireland in a process that operates solely behind closed doors, in secrecy. If confidence is to be built in the community, there has to be a public element, a degree of transparency, which public debate will give.
Furthermore, the public debate itself will be fruitful in terms of possibly changing the approach, or developing the approach, of the participants. The effect of
engagement in debate on those who are there is not to be overlooked. That, presumably, is why we treasure this institution. Surely we believe that the debates that we have in the Chamber make a contribution to our own thoughts as well as to the public view. We should not, therefore, treat so dismissively having a similar debating opportunity in Northern Ireland.
It was never part of the intention of my hon. Friends and others who put forward this proposal--we are happy to acknowledge the contribution to the thinking that we have received from others such as the Alliance party and the Democratic Unionist party in this matter--that the body to be created would in some way control and determine the negotiations. I find it amazing that anyone should think that that would be the case. Exactly the same people will be in the forum and in the negotiations. Exactly the same parties will be there. The decisions that are taken by agreement in one will be replicated in the other. If there is agreement in the negotiations, I expect there to be similar agreements in the forum. How could it be otherwise if the same people are in both channels? If there is disagreement in one area, I expect the disagreement will be replicated elsewhere. I cannot envisage that the same people in two channels will instruct themselves in one area how to behave in the other. That is simply not a situation that we need worry about.
I hope that the negotiations will be fruitful. I also hope that the debate in the forum will be fruitful. The additional advantage of the forum is that it can take evidence from the public. It can involve the public in the process. That is something that I hope the public and interest groups in the community in Northern Ireland will do.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow):
With regard to consulting the public, does the hon. Gentleman expect that the forum will be confined to one location or that it will be a roving commission going from community to community and holding meetings in those different communities?
Mr. Trimble:
I very much hope that that option is available to it. Whether it is depends to a certain extent on whether the Secretary of State is prepared to make the resources available for that to happen. I hope that that will involve not just a matter of going within the community in Northern Ireland, but going outside Northern Ireland to take evidence from people elsewhere in the United Kingdom or even in the Republic of Ireland as well. That could be a beneficial exercise and one should not decry the opportunities that are there.
I am happy to see that some commentators in the Dublin press are beginning to appreciate that there may be merit in the operation of the forum. I am thinking of articles in the Irish Independent today by Dr. Maurice Hayes and in The Irish Times by Mary Holland, both of whom are beginning to appreciate that the forum can make a useful contribution. I hope that it will, and I hope that the process on which we are engaged will be moved forward in a positive way, but we must be realistic about it. In being realistic, we must acknowledge that what happened on 9 February and subsequently did happen and has an important bearing on the process.
I appreciate why some hon. Members focus so much on Sinn Fein, but the indisputable evidence is that there is not a commitment to peaceful means within Sinn Fein and the IRA. We have talked about the Mitchell principles. One of
the Mitchell principles is to oppose any effort to use force to influence the course of negotiations. What on earth was the bomb of 9 February if it was not an attempt to use force to influence the course of negotiations? What on earth was the bomb in London last night, set off just before this debate, if it was not the use of force as an attempt to influence the course of negotiations?
Let us have no illusions about this. The opportunity is there for Sinn Fein-IRA if they are to have a road-to-Damascus conversion between now and 10 June. If they are to realise the error of their current ways, the opportunity is there, but let us be realistic about it. It would be false to build too many hopes on that. The likelihood is that, when 10 June comes, should Sinn Fein arrive at the talks, which it very well may not, the duty of most of us would probably be to remind it of the need to make this absolute and total commitment to the Mitchell proposals and to ensure that it is shown the door if that is not the case. It will be for Sinn Fein to decide whether it takes that road. The principles are there and it would be quite wrong for us to distort or change them.
There is also a positive opportunity here. During the past 18 months, the refusal of Sinn Fein-IRA to demonstrate good faith prevented any political progress. Their refusal to move on the issue meant that nothing happened. Now, in the future, should they continue to fail to demonstrate good faith, their refusal will affect only their own position. The process is there and can be carried on by the other parties.
Sir Patrick Mayhew
indicated assent.
Mr. Trimble:
I am glad to see the Secretary of State nodding in agreement with that. That opportunity is there for those who are committed to democracy and peaceful means. Those who are committed to democracy and peaceful means have an obligation to take this opportunity and to move forward even if it means leaving behind those small groups that are mired in terrorism. That is what we must look forward to in June; to carry forward the process in a way that will benefit the people of Northern Ireland--the 85 to 90 per cent. of the people of Northern Ireland who do not support the use of violence and who have enjoyed, yes, the absence or relative absence of violence during the last couple of years and who look forward to the creation of political institutions. That is what we must do. It is the duty of all those who believe in democracy to proceed in that way.
Rev. Ian Paisley (North Antrim):
It always amazes me how Members of the House who have never fought an election in Northern Ireland, who visit it only occasionally, know the mind of the people of Northern Ireland. It simply amazes me. If I stood up in the House and told the hon. Member for Redcar (Ms Mowlam) that I knew what her constituents were thinking, she would tell me to get lost, perhaps in stronger language that I would not use in the House. The people of Northern Ireland resent greatly that Members of the House can investigate their minds and their thinking and tell the House authoritatively what they are thinking.
The hon. Lady asked what would be the difference between this forum and the forum in Dublin. The difference is that this will be a democratic forum. People
will go not because they were chosen by the Government, but because people made the choice for them to go. That is why. We are talking about democracy. We are not talking about rigged assemblies to obtain the kind of decision that the hon. Lady thinks should be made.
5.46 pm
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