| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Wilshire: The hon. Gentleman urged us not to read too much into the minds of the people whom he understands better, but I ask him not to read too much into the comments of individual members of my party, because not necessarily does one person speak for everybody else, not even the chairman.
Rev. Ian Paisley: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman includes the chairman and the Secretary of State in that. I shall leave members of the Conservative party to have within their ranks their own debate about that. I welcome the fact that Conservative candidates can stand at the election, but regret that the Labour party, which seems to know about Northern Ireland, will not be fielding candidates.
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North): Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it is a rather unfortunate departure from traditional democratic principles when the Secretary of State can decide in advance of an election which parties are allowed to contest it?
Rev. Ian Paisley: If the hon. Gentleman looks at the amendments that my party has tabled, he will have the answer to that point. I hope that he votes for those amendments. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. All the parties in the House and all the parties that were called to the negotiating table made strong representations on various issues that we are not satisfied about. Someone asked how I know. I tested the people of Northern Ireland a little over 18 months ago on the Downing street declaration. I ran an election on it and topped the poll with more than 163,000 votes, so I know something about what people in Northern Ireland think on these issues.
The Bill exposes the Government's view that we must undermine the ordinary elective process and thus weaken real democracy in Northern Ireland. The way forward for Northern Ireland is real democracy. We must not weaken or dilute it, but we must support it and believe in it. I am
one who said that we should get as many as possible of the smaller parties to the table, but not by rigging an election. We should get them to the table, if they can make it, by the democratic process. We also put it to the Secretary of State that the number of people contesting the election could be limited simply by asking every candidate wishing to stand to produce at least 200 assentors. If every candidate could get 200 names, they would have at least a little chance.
I put that to one of the smaller parties, and it said: "Would we have to go out and canvass so many names? We couldn't do that. We couldn't get them." In that case, their candidates should not be standing. Look at what those parties will cost the Government, with their manifestos, all delivered free, the printing of ballot papers, and so on. The Government should pay attention to what was said and do something to ease the problem. That does not mean that I am against independents standing, but they should have to put down a deposit.
When the hon. and learned Member for North Down (Mr. McCartney) stands, he has to put down a deposit. If he goes into another constituency, he has to put down a deposit. There is no easy way in the election, and one must be prepared to lose the deposit. Some good men have lost their deposits in the past and eventually gained an ear in the House. That is the way of democracy, and we must stick to that.
We see in the Bill a rigging of the system. We also see a great conspiracy to weaken the forum when it is elected, and that is a tragedy. I regret what the hon. Member for Redcar said, because the forum will be a marvellous opportunity for the parties in Northern Ireland to express their views in the light of day, not behind closed doors. People could test in public, through debate, what their views were. I have never heard of some of the people on the list. I do not know who they are. I do not know what they are. In fact, they themselves hardly know. The parties just thought of a name and got it in just in time. Now they will be faced with the difficulty of finding two candidates for one constituency. It would be good if they could get together if elected and discuss those matters in public.
Why is the House against a forum that will have an opportunity to discuss in public matters that are important to the people of Northern Ireland? Why does the House want to cast away the opportunity that the forum could give? After all, the people at the negotiating table will be the leaders and representatives of the people in the forum, so there will not be such a great difference between what is said at the negotiating table and what is said in the forum.
If we do not have the forum, the election will be in vain, because we shall be allowed only three negotiators, and three people sitting behind, and that will apply to the small parties as well. Irrespective of whether someone gets 30 per cent. or 15 per cent. of the vote, they are reduced to the size of the smallest party. The only way to balance that democratically is to have the forum and to have it working properly. Why should it not work and vote? What is so wrong with voting? We do it all the time in this House.
Mr. Thomas McAvoy (Glasgow, Rutherglen):
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it would be far better to have a forum/assembly/Stormont that was the result of all-party agreement rather than impose one, when it quite clearly would not have the full confidence of the majority of people in Northern Ireland?
Rev. Ian Paisley:
I shall correct the hon. Gentleman. We are not talking about a new Stormont or a new assembly, and neither was anyone who made this proposal. We all said that the forum would not have any legislative or administrative power. It would be the forum in which Ulster people could say what they wanted.
The Government have been meeting representatives of Sinn Fein and the IRA, and the so-called loyalist paramilitary groups, behind closed doors time and again. The ordinary people of Northern Ireland ask, "When are we going to have a say?" The only way in which they can have a say is through the forum. It is their negotiating body, reflecting their views. It is ridiculous for the hon. Gentleman to suggest that we would try to set up some new Stormont in this way. The forum will have no power whatever. We do not want it to have any power. We have made it perfectly clear to our people that they need not look upon themselves as Members of Parliament in embryo. They are nothing of the sort. They are just delegates to their negotiating forum.
Dr. Godman:
Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the view voiced a few minutes ago by the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble), the leader of the Ulster Unionist party, that the forum should be given the means to allow it to meet outwith Belfast, elsewhere in the United Kingdom, even in Dublin?
Rev. Ian Paisley:
We have said that the forum can meet in any part of the United Kingdom. No doubt, if it wanted to go to Dublin, it would. I would not go with it, by the way, if it did. I think that it is in the ground rules that there is no restriction on where it can meet.
Mr. Peter Robinson:
The Government supplied the political parties in Northern Ireland with a paper during the consultative process, in which they laid out clearly the role that such a forum would have, and proposed that it would be able to meet in various places and in various forms. I know of no party that has objected to that proposal.
Rev. Ian Paisley:
Another proposal was that committees of the forum should sit like Select Committees of this House and investigate problems, which are bound to arise during negotiations. We have a problem at the moment, for example, in local government. Surely there should be a committee to examine local government in Northern Ireland.
We have many problems. The forum should continue with its work, and then feed the results to the negotiators. That, surely, would lead to consensus--the consensus that has already been achieved by committees. There is much work to be done. The main thrust of the policy of both the SDLP and the Dublin Government, however, has been that the forum is not really important. It is a case of telling people, "Stand for election and then go home; we do not want you, and we are sorry that we ever heard of you."
I resent the part of the Bill that refers carefully to making
Why does it not say "for the purpose of electing a forum from which delegates shall be drawn to participate in the negotiations"? The Government want to put the forum
down. The trouble is that people fear that there will be a Unionist majority on it--and there will. Most people who are sent to this House, under its own rules, are Unionists; those who do not like that will have to lump it. I once said to Mrs. Thatcher, "You have been elected by the people of the land. Millions hate you, but you are still the Prime Minister. You hate me, but I have been elected by the people, and I will speak for the people." It is not possible to do anything else.
What is wrong with the people of Ulster having their say in an election, and subsequently in debate? They have no powers. They cannot legislate; they can only give an opinion, having established that opinion through select committees. Moreover, there is to be a referendum, so that the result of all the discussions can be put to the people. If that result is not passed by the forum, it will never be passed by the people of Northern Ireland. That is the litmus test. If the result cannot get past the forum, we can forget about it.
If the House is foolish enough to say goodbye to the forum's opinion and call a referendum, and if the result of the discussions is overwhelmingly rejected, we shall find ourselves in an even worse position. Why is the House so adamant about de-horning the forum? It should be able to deliberate and vote. I am glad that it is to be allowed to appoint its own chairman; there was a big fight about that. I think that some Ministers thought that they should chair the forum, but subsequently realised that that was not on, and that we were entitled to choose our own chairman. It would be possible to have weighted majorities. The European Parliament has weighted majorities, and there is nothing undemocratic about that.
I am sorry that the Government wish to neuter the assembly. Clause 1 spells out the purpose of the elections: they are to provide
It does not, however, spell out the fact that the purpose of the elections is to provide the people of Northern Ireland with a genuine stake in a matter from which they have most to lose or gain.
Clause 2 deals with the first task that must be undertaken immediately after the elections. I note that the Government intend to invite negotiating teams to participate. Where will those teams come from? They will come from the forum--but the forum will not meet. That is the first thing that must happen: the forum must meet, and it must meet before 10 June. It cannot be muzzled; it must be heard, and it will be heard.
Unfortunately, the Government have already fixed the meeting place for the negotiations. They must do that, because they spend so much money on making rules--and on giving Gerry Adams a beautiful suite of offices with his name on the door. Dick Spring has an even bigger suite. He said that his table was not as big as the Secretary of State's, and that there must be equality. I was given a room, which I have never seen; so was my party, and so was the Ulster Unionist party. Stormont used to be anathema to the republicans, but that is no longer the case. There are those wonderful rooms, and the small parties that have told us that they will never give up their weapons--that they will never hand in one gun--are welcome. The leader's name is on the door, and they all sit there in state.
Let me remind the House that the loyalist paramilitaries take the same line as Sinn Fein: they refuse to decommission. I, for one, will not sit down with them until they abide by the Mitchell principles and start handing in the weapons that have committed murder, just like the weapons of Sinn Fein. If hon. Members think that Unionists can be bullied into sitting down with a bunch of gunmen, they had better be disillusioned immediately. We cannot negotiate with those who are killing people and brutalising Northern Ireland.
That is still happening today. I am amazed that the House does not realise what is happening in our Province. A young Roman Catholic boy, Martin Docherty, was actually crucified: spikes were put into his hands and feet, and he was left bleeding by the IRA. Then hon. Members ask me to sit down with the IRA's representatives, and to talk about peace. That cannot be done, and no self-respecting politician will do it.
That is why I have asked the Secretary of State how he will prove that IRA representatives are genuine. Even the deputy leader of the Ulster Unionist party said that he was convinced that the ceasefire was real: his gut had told him that. No doubt his stomach has now taught him another lesson--that the ceasefire was not real. The Secretary of State said that he "perceived" that it was real, and was making a working assumption. His working assumption was balderdash; it was not "working" at all. At the very time when he was saying that, churches were being burnt on both sides of the community. Orange halls were being burnt, and the police were being attacked: 590 petrol bombs were thrown at them. Some peace.
Beatings were also being carried out. The House should ensure that no representative sits at the negotiating table until those dreadful beatings have stopped. They are an outrage, but they are happening repeatedly, and not just one side is responsible. This year alone, the loyalists have already carried out 33 punishment beatings and the republicans 45--but they have a room at Stormont with their leader's name on it, and they are sitting negotiating with the Government. What sort of democracy is that? Since the ceasefire, the IRA has carried out more than 210 such attacks, while the loyalists have carried out 125. What about the Lurgan man, Mr. Maguire, who was attacked by the IRA on 12 April? Mr. Maguire, a grandfather, was covered in petrol and then set on fire. We can have nothing to do with people who do those things, or with their spokesmen.
The Secretary of State promised that he would first ask the leaders of all the parties to make a declaration--he was not entering into negotiations--that they were tied to the Mitchell principles, and would proceed to carry them out. The Mitchell programme is decommissioning: the arms must go. What has Martin McGuinness told us? He has said that no gun will ever be surrendered by the IRA, and Gerry Adams has said the same. The Protestant paramilitaries have also said that no guns will be surrendered.
"provision for elections in Northern Ireland for the purpose of providing delegates".
"delegates from among whom participants in negotiations may be drawn."
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |