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Mr. Trimble: I am delighted by the hon. Gentleman's points. I take it that he will endorse our suggestion, which we have made regularly in recent months, that the forum should conduct itself analogously to Select Committees by forming committees to take evidence and make factual inquiries on matters relevant to the negotiations to assist the negotiators. Will he join our request to the Government that the committees of the forum should have the powers of Select Committees to summon persons and papers? Those powers would be exercised only to extract information from the Northern Ireland Office that it is jealously refusing to provide.
Mr. Worthington: I find myself agreeing with the hon. Gentleman to a disturbing degree. There is much sense in what he says but he also knows that there is an issue about the rules of procedure. We can construct rules of procedure, such as those that apply in this place, where we normally vote at 10 pm, but that is not a way to construct consensus. There are other rules of procedure whereby the dominant ethos would be the construction of consensus. For the success of the forum, we want--and this will be our challenge in the work that lies ahead--to make sure that its rules and procedures are right. We should be talking not the language of votes and adversarial debate but that of constructing common ground.
Rev. Ian Paisley: The last assembly in Northern Ireland proceeded in the way that the hon. Gentleman describes, with all the parties co-operating in Select Committee fashion to try to reach a consensus on various matters. Surely those rules of procedure, which were tried and have been proved to succeed, would be a good basis for the rules of the forum.
Mr. Worthington: I have to bow to the hon. Gentleman in respect of his knowledge of that time, but I agree with his words and hope that it will be possible to construct rules of procedure that lead to the construction of a consensus.
The forum, with the right rules of procedure, could diminish the most important problem--the absence of trust--and could start the decommissioning of mindsets
that Mitchell sought. The rules of procedure therefore cannot be about majorities and minorities. They must be about constructing whole communities and about the construction of dialogue, understanding and consensus across the communities.
I note that the Secretary of State has to approve the rules of procedure of the forum as drawn up by the forum. In Committee, I hope that he will be willing to consider amendments that seek to make it clear that those rules must be constructed with a view to securing assent across the community. I also note that, in reality, the Secretary of State has to construct the first set of rules of procedure for the forum so that it can meet, because without such rules how can the forum come into existence?
Other hon. Members have drawn a parallel with paragraph 24 of the Command Paper, which says of the all-party talks:
We would like that spirit to suffuse the rules of procedure for the forum itself so that it is clear that any decision taken is taken by a clear majority in both the nationalist and Unionist communities in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Trimble:
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I apologise for intervening again. Has he considered the effect of the weighted majority provision, which necessarily means, in view of the likely result of the election, that the rules of procedure will be agreed only if assented to by nationalists, or some nationalists at any event, if they take their place at the forum and participate in it? Because it will be necessary to have the assent of some nationalists in order to achieve the 75 per cent. weighted majority, it will inevitably follow that the rules of procedure will contain the element of consensus to which he refers.
Mr. Worthington:
As a first basis, one should not say that one is constructing a 75:25 per cent. majority; rather one should be seeking consensus. The great danger is that if one says that the policy is based on that 75:25 per cent., no one will bother to do the hard work that is necessary to construct a consensus. We must do just that.
The Opposition will vote for the Bill, with all its flaws and illogicalities, because it is now the only way in which all-party talks can start on 10 June. It is the only way in which there is hope of the restoration of the ceasefire. We will also vote for it because we are convinced that the people of Northern Ireland want us politicians to rise to the occasion and to take risks for peace. That is the inevitable aim behind the Bill.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Michael Ancram):
I thank the hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthington) for his support for the Bill. I also thank Her Majesty's Opposition for the bipartisan approach that they have
I start, as others have, by sending through the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) my best wishes and the best wishes of my party to the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon). We wish him a speedy recovery. Everyone in the House values his contributions, and although we valued that from the hon. Member for South Down tonight, it was not quite the same, if I may say so, as that of the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh. I hope that the hon. Member for South Down will pass on the message that we have a great deal of respect and admiration for his hon. Friend, provided that that does not ruin his political reputation in Northern Ireland.
We have had a constructive debate and I have found a lot from which to draw optimism, particularly the fact that despite the inevitable criticism about the detail of the legislation, every party spokesman has underlined his support for the concept of all-party negotiations leading to agreement and settlement. I believe that that bodes well for the process on which we are launching ourselves at the moment.
The debate has been conducted in a serious manner and that fact has sent a message to the men of violence. It has told them that we will not allow violence to detract or distract us from the path of democracy and that no amount of bombing, shooting, punishment beatings, et cetera, will divert hon. Members of the House from pursuing what they believe to be democratically right.
We have had a detailed debate, which I suspect is a good foretaste of the Committee stage. I hope that hon. Members will forgive me if I do not deal with every detailed question that has been asked as I am certain that some of them will be asked again on Monday and Tuesday next week and I shall have a chance to deal with them then. I will pick up on two points, however, partly because they interested me in the way that they were posed.
The first was the question that was asked of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State by the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) about the reasons for going for the local government franchise rather than a parliamentary franchise. The real difference is that under the parliamentary franchise those from overseas can vote, Peers cannot vote and European citizens cannot vote. Under the local government franchise, Peers can vote--there are nine Peers who will be affected in this way and I believe that they have the right to have a say in the future of Northern Ireland--and European citizens can vote, but those from overseas cannot vote. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would wish to know that as of 29 November 1995 the number of those on the parliamentary franchise was 1,169,423 and that the number of those on the local government franchise was 1,169,353--a difference of 70. I am not sure that that will make a significant difference.
Mr. John D. Taylor:
Who are they?
Mr. Ancram:
We may have to ask them to carry the identity cards that the right hon. Gentleman talked about.
Mr. Taylor:
I know that that specifically referred to the referendum. I wanted an assurance that the electoral court could operate on all other aspects of the election.
Mr. Ancram:
The Ulster clause is carefully defined and limited, and I believe that the right hon. Gentleman will find that to be the case.
The hon. Member for Redcar (Ms Mowlam) raised a number of issues and I shall try to deal with them. She made the point about the importance of encouraging the participation of women in the political process in Northern Ireland, which was repeated by the hon. Member for Dagenham (Ms Church). I warmly endorse that sentiment. The political process would benefit from the greater involvement of women. We have included the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition in the list of parties and we are considering what other measures may be possible. I join the hon. Member for Redcar in encouraging the parties to make efforts to secure the greater participation of women and I am sure that they will have a significant role to play in the forum.
The hon. Lady also asked whether there was an appeal mechanism in relation to parties. We have sought to have an inclusive process and we have made considerable efforts to consult in this regard. We extended our list substantially in the light of consultation, taking into account all the representations that we received. Parties that were anxious to participate but were not on our first list had an opportunity to make their views known.
At this stage, it would be impractical to have an appeal mechanism in the Bill because there simply is no time to deal with late applications. However, it would be wrong for me to rule out absolutely any changes to the list because we have the Committee stage of the Bill to come and names could be included at that time. As I have said, there is no time to have a full appeal mechanism.
The hon. Member for Redcar and others asked about clause 7 and the power to revive the forum when it was suspended. The hon. Lady asked me to confirm that the power would not be used when negotiations had ceased or were in suspension. We have always envisaged that negotiations and the forum would run in parallel. The Secretary of State would not, therefore, propose to revive the forum while negotiations were not in progress. If the forum has ceased because, for instance, negotiations have been suspended, and then the negotiations begin again, the forum can be brought back into operation. There is power for that.
The hon. Member for Redcar and the right hon. Member for Strangford asked about the timing of the first meeting of the forum. That is for later consideration. We shall want to take views into account, and I am sure that views will be forthcoming. At this stage we do not envisage a meeting of the forum before 10 June.
The hon. Member for Redcar asked also about the exercise of discretionary powers under the Bill. The Secretary of State would hope to use those powers in a
spirit of consultation and in pursuit of general acceptance where possible. On some questions, such as the identity of nominating representatives, we have consulted already in the formal paper.
The hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) referred, first, to party descriptions. I believe that he referred to bogus parties. The consultation paper asked for the names of parties and stated that these would be set out on the ballot paper. We received a number of representations setting out how parties wanted their parties to be described, including those from the hon. Gentleman. It is not for us to decide which party is bogus. I say with some justification that Northern Ireland has some experience of new parties and new combinations of initials, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware. The people of Northern Ireland have always shown remarkable good common sense in distinguishing those parties at the ballot box.
I have heard several representations today about deposits. We shall want to receive further representations, and I suspect that they will be made in Committee.
The hon. Member for Upper Bann asked about the ground rules and wanted to know whether they were set in concrete. I know that this is a matter of concern to him. We published a consultation document on the rules on 15 March and we have undertaken detailed consultations with the principal parties on that paper since then. I believe that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that the Command Paper reflects a number of changes as a result of the consultations. It now represents, as it says,
"The negotiations will operate on the basis of consensus . . . The rules for establishing sufficient consensus will be agreed in advance of negotiations by the participants".
"the best judgment of the two Governments on the most suitable and broadly acceptable ground rules for the . . . negotiations . . . on 10 June".
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