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Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I remind the hon. Gentleman of the point that I made not many minutes ago? The content of the Bill is the only proper matter for consideration on Third Reading. The hon. Gentleman is going rather wide of that.

Mr. Evans: May I point out that Ann Mayne of the Campaign Against Pornography highlighted how pornographic magazines were used by operators to promote such holidays? Access is easy; curbing it is difficult. As a country and a society, we adhere to the principles of freedom of speech, and we already have in place tough laws on obscene publications.

Sir Michael Neubert: In the context of the remarks that my hon. Friend has just made, will he with me deplore the apparent new practice of W. H. Smith of sending such magazines unsolicited to newsagents as part of a package of publications that they might sell? Is it not the role of a responsible public company to do rather better than that?

Mr. Evans: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. It is outrageous that such public companies should send directly to newsagents, with information that they should go on the top shelf in the shop, unsolicited magazines which encourage people to do exactly what we are trying to stop them doing. I agree with my hon. Friend's point.

I have also been informed that operators promote paedophilia through coded advertisements in the personal columns of broadsheets such as The Times. That complicates the issue, because it highlights the options available to operators to contact would-be clients, and makes the introduction of specific legislation very difficult. It also clouds the issue of legally proving guilt--defined as being a party to the conspiracy.

While adverts in pornographic magazines might be ambiguous or even overt, adverts in broadsheets will be coded and covert. That presents a problem in making those who publish advertisements promoting porn rings and sex holidays for paedophiles liable in the same sense--that they are a party to the conspiracy.

If adverts are covert and coded, publishers might not be aware of the true intentions of those who place them. Nevertheless, if advertisements are deemed by a judge to be sufficiently overt, it is only right that the title involved should be found guilty as a party to the conspiracy or incitement. Punishing not only the operators but those that carry advertisements that promote paedophilia is a necessary aspect of the drive to stop people profiting from the perverse fantasies of paedophiles.

That has two further implications. First, newspapers have an added responsibility for monitoring the advertisements that they wish to carry. Secondly, it provides an incentive for the publishers of pornographic magazines, the main channel for such information, to start regulating the advertisements that fill their pages.

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One unfortunate but likely consequence of the Bill's introduction will be to drive operators even further underground. However, that is not a reason for not passing it. It may make guilt harder to prove, as operators will take more measures to cover their tracks and avoid explicitly declaring the true nature of trips abroad.

One of the focuses of the Bill is avoiding the use of the testimony of minors who have been violated. The focus is on proving beyond all reasonable doubt the guilt of suspected organisers and racketeers before fellow members of their ring or customers leave the country specifically to go on a pervert or paedophile holiday. If that cannot be ascertained, it seems inevitable that the investigating officers would require the testimony of minors from foreign countries to corroborate their evidence to prove guilt beyond all reasonable doubt. That would not necessarily defeat the object of the Bill, but it could be argued that it would undermine it.

The Bill relies on dual criminality. A would-be customer's conduct on a prearranged trip would need to violate the law of the land and that of England and Wales. For instance, organisers could send a person to Thailand on the understanding that young girls would be available, and arrange for girls of 15 years and upwards.

As 15 is the legal age of consent in Thailand, but is a year lower than in England and Wales, the Bill could not bring such operators to court. If men abroad then indulged in sex with girls under 15, that would be a case for the Thai authorities. The Bill makes no provision for a trial in the UK, as the organisers claimed that only girls over 15 years of age would be available.

Whether we should make men stand trial in the UK for such crimes, as opposed to allowing them to stand trial in the country concerned, is a vexed question. If the authorities involved will co-operate, it is largely irrelevant whether the case is heard in Britain or abroad. Without co-operative counterparts, our police force would be hampered in bringing a successful prosecution to court, in this country or any other.

There is a need to forge close co-operation at many levels for successful detection of such sex rackets. That statement appeals mainly to law enforcement agencies in other countries, whose record for co-operation leaves a lot to be desired. However, an effective working relationship between the agencies of law enforcement in the United Kingdom and other countries is essential if we are to be able to prove that operators in the United Kingdom are sending people on prearranged pervert or paedophile holidays.

The Conservative party is committed to giving the police the support necessary to convict criminals. I only hope that the same can be said for Opposition Members. I know that their record on that is patchy, to say the least. They too often seem to be concerned with the civil rights of criminals.

Mr. Michael: I realise that the hon. Gentleman has a reputation for introducing controversy where none exists, but the debates on the Bill have been constructive and cross-party. His partisan approach is not necessary, especially from a supporter of a Government who have doubled crime and allowed levels of violence to continue to rocket.

Mr. Evans: I do not wish to be controversial. There should be a greater sense of certainty and severity in

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sentencing. The Conservative Government, and especially my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, have not forgotten that prisons should not be holiday camps. Prison regimes should be tough--so tough that criminals want to get out of prison, and not try to get back in as soon as they can.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman has rather a short memory. I said that he should deal only with the contents of the Bill on Third Reading.

Mr. Evans: On paedophiles, my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary--and I agree with every word--last December said:

"The full force of the law must be used against the evil people who sexually exploit children for money.

It is an abhorrent activity. We must do all we can to prevent it and protect children everywhere.

We have looked carefully at the problem and have decided the most effective way our legal system can deal with it is to extend our laws on conspiracy and incitement.

The proposals aim to catch and punish those who organise sex tours or who encourage those who travel abroad for the purpose of sexually exploiting children.

These depraved people will face the same tough penalties as they would face if they had committed these offences here.

We are looking for a suitable legislative opportunity to take this forward."

The opportunity is here today. The House supports the Bill, and so do I.

11.54 pm

Mrs. Llin Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme): I want briefly to say how strongly I support the Bill and all measures to protect children the world over.

The Bill was intended as a small step in dealing with this growing trade in human misery. Since it started its passage through the House, however--because of the strength of feeling and commitment of many organisations and individuals and, indeed, the determination of hon. Members and those in another place--it has been obvious that we need to convince the Government that small steps will not do. We need larger steps.

More and more Governments are implementing legislation to catch and prosecute those perverted individuals. For example, in Thailand, which has been an area of great child prostitution and abuse of children, the Thai Government are moving in the right direction. The changes there should help and support the implementation of the Bill and should help other Governments to eradicate child prostitution.

Three years ago, the former Prime Minister of Thailand declared that the priority policy of his Government was to eliminate child sexual abuse, child prostitution and forced prostitution. That policy was reconfirmed by the present Government. Their strong, clear policy has yielded many good results.

Brothels and entertainment places that provide children under 18 years old for commercial sex have been raided, and a number of people charged. A special task force has been set up to suppress commercial sex business, child sexual abuse and prostitution. A child's rights protection division has been established within the office of the Attorney-General to help child victims

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and to monitor child sexual abuse cases. All those measures should help with the implementation of the Bill, and the Thai Government are introducing more legislation and employing more people to control that evil trade.

The Thai Government have introduced a penal code under which rape or molestation committed against a child who is not over 15 years of age, even with the child's consent, is statutory rape or molestation, and the perpetrator shall be separately punished for each act committed. That strengthens the law in Thailand, and enables police there to inform the Government here what is going on.

The penal code also stipulates that whoever has sexual intercourse with a girl who is not over 15 years of age, with or without her consent, shall be punished with imprisonment of four to 20 years. If the victimised girl is under 13, the sentence is imprisonment of seven to 20 years. It also stipulates that whoever commits an indecent act on a child--boy or girl--who is not over 15 years of age, with or without his or her consent, will be punished by imprisonment not exceeding 10 years.

The penal code has many other provisions. For example, if the procurer forces a girl to have sex with another, he or she is liable to be imprisoned for between 10 and 20 years. That will help bring this evil trade to an end.

I am sure that we will strongly support the Thai Government in what they are doing. Another important thing they have done is make it easier for children to give evidence. They are proceeding with video evidence and are assisting child witnesses. I think that they must have read the Piggott committee's report on the giving of evidence by children, because they are introducing many of its recommendations.

The Bill has focused the Government's attention on the need for legislation. I thank the hon. Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) for introducing it, and for doing all he has done to help rid the world of this problem.

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