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11.59 am
Mr. Alison: I echo the words of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mrs. Golding) congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) on taking on this prickly and, in many ways, disagreeable subject, plunging into the ramifications of the sphere with which we are dealing, nursing it through its gestation period in Committee and birth by Third Reading, and generally allowing himself to be exposed to the cold and hot winds of passion that blow from every quarter of the country and the House on him for sponsoring the Bill and seeing it safely on to the statute book.
I am sure that he and his constituents will be proud that his name will be associated--among a dazzling array of other initiatives and achievements that he has secured in the House--with this most necessary and desirable measure for the protection of people who are most vulnerable and unprotected.
One must also endorse and commend the Home Office and my right hon. Friend the Minister for his assiduousness in supporting and helping us to make the best of this measure in Committee. It is very much a sign of the Government's awareness of the strong case that could be
made for the very vexed extra-territoriality argument that they have encouraged and assisted in the production of this measure, precisely because they are so anxious that everything possible should be done to help, even if they have reservations about some of the practical matters. I should be among the first to commend my right hon. Friend for the way in which he has helped us in Committee and for the positive attitude he has taken on the matter of his review of extra-territoriality.
As my right hon. Friend the Minister is so open-minded and open-hearted, and has such an open personality that he finds it impossible--none of us finds it easy--to discern the slightest hint or suggestion of duplicity or of misleading anyone, because of his fundamental attitudes on these matters, I detect that he is really not a great enthusiast, prima facie, for the idea of extra-territoriality, unlike his right hon. Friend the Minister of State in another place, for example, who is quite an enthusiast in that sphere. I very much hope that my right hon. Friend will continue to keep a thoroughly and genuinely open mind on this issue; I know that he is capable of it.
We often discover that lifeboats on liners sail round the world for many years without the canvas being stripped off them and attempts being made to launch them. That is not an argument for not having lifeboats on a liner. I very much hope and believe that, if there is even the slightest chance of the efficacy of extra-territoriality being available and applied in this sphere, the fail-safe approach will be to put the lifeboats on the liner.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), who has guided our thoughts on this Bill from the Opposition Front Bench, and who has been so constructive about the approach to extra-territoriality in Committee and again today. I very much hope that the Minister will have discerned the extremely positive approach that Opposition Front Benchers are taking to extra-territoriality, and their insistence that that issue be debated further when we come to consider the Minister's review.
I conclude by expressing my thanks and the thanks of many colleagues in both places--not least the thanks of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme--for the huge amount of helpful work, research and support that has emanated from the Coalition on Child Prostitution and Tourism. The coalition is composed of Anti-Slavery International, the Catholic Fund for Overseas Development, Christian Aid, the Jubilee Campaign, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Save the Children (UK) and World Vision UK. That is a powerful coalition. Anne Badger, who co-ordinated it and supplied us with so much good material, and has sent in the coalition's evidence to the review on extra-territoriality, has done a superb job.
We are greatly in the coalition's debt; it is precisely the sort of body that is being active as non-governmental organisations in overseas countries. They are likely to be well placed to provide evidence of offences committed overseas in any court cases that may, in the end, materialise here.
I conclude by commending all those who have helped us so much, and my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South for the initiative he has taken.
12.4 pm
Mr. Garnier:
As I said earlier this morning, I feel somewhat of an interloper in the debate, since I was not on the Committee where so many constructive suggestions were made as to the progress and content of the Bill.
I echo what has been said before--not because it is customary to do so, but because it is right that I should do so--by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) on his good fortune and the exemplary way in which he has brought forward the Bill for presentation.
It is one of the best Friday Bills that I have had the pleasure of reading, because it commands the support of all sides of the House, is tightly drafted and is designed for the specific aim--I have no doubt that it will achieve it--of preventing conspiracies and incitement to do unattractive and revolting acts in foreign countries that no moral person could possibly condone.
By keeping my remarks as brief as I can, I do not wish to be thought merely to be giving cursory praise to my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South, who has performed a signal task. The House, the country and, as right hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Alison) has already said, his constituents, will remember that for a good many years to come.
I should like to concentrate on some aspects of the Bill, bearing in mind that this is its Third Reading, which strike me as of particular importance. In clause 1, the ingredients of the conspiracy to commit certain sexual acts outside the United Kingdom are set out.
There is a great mystique about conspiracy. It is often thought--I suspect by laymen and others--that there is something terribly magical about a conspiracy, but it is no more than an agreement between two or more persons to effect an unlawful purpose. The crime is in the agreement. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South and my right hon. Friend the Minister would agree that it is often difficult to get the evidence to prove the conspiracy, but the concept and definition of criminal conspiracy is remarkably simple.
That is just one of the reasons why I find the Bill so attractive. The definition is set out in such simple terms that every person who might be considering breaching its terms in the future will be in no doubt that that is what he is doing.
The conditions set out in the subsections to clause 1 are essential. One of the most essential, which I find so useful, is that in clause 1(3):
To some extent, that deals with the implied suggestion by my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet (Mr. Batiste), who spoke with great fluency and cogency, that we were imposing some legislative colonialism on other countries. The double criminality key acquits us of that offence.
There is no need for small children, the innocent victims of such offences, to be brought, at great peril and in fear, from their own lands to this country to go through the ordeal of having to give evidence in a Crown court, because the conspiracy or the incitement will be committed here. It may be that the eventual consequences of the conspiracies and the incitements will be abroad, but because the conspiracy and therefore the crimes that my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South so rightly
wishes to stop takes place in this country--or at least elements of them take place in this country--there will be no need for the children to come to this country.
From my personal experience of the civil side of the law, I know that it is not always a good idea to introduce minors, those of tender age, into court because it leads to all sorts of unforeseen consequences, not only with regard to the progress of the trial but also with regard to the future lives of the children.
Mr. Alison:
As a layman, I am following the trail that my right hon. and learned Friend has suddenly opened up to me--it seems to be absolutely fascinating. Is he advising us that any offence connected with or committed by a British citizen against a child in another country, such as sexual abuse, automatically implies that a conspiracy must have taken place, and that therefore the case is automatically susceptible to the provisions of the Bill? If that is the case, we have no problems about extra-territorial legislation.
Mr. Garnier:
I am not sure that that is the case, because, clearly, there will be cases in which a British subject independently buys himself an airline ticket, goes to another country without conspiring with or being incited by anyone, and commits an act that would be considered a sexual offence against a minor if committed in this country. It may also be an offence to commit that act in the other country--for example, in Thailand. However, under the present law the fact that he commits the act in Thailand, is not prosecuted for it in Thailand and returns here does not make him guilty of an offence that would be brought within the terms of the Bill. If he conspires with or incites others while in England to do such things abroad, he will be caught by the Bill.
I hope that I am correct in saying that this is a limited Bill that attempts to create discrete crimes that can be dealt with positively. It fills a hole that needed to be filled. The Bill does not require under-age children to be brought to England to justify the prosecution. It seems to me a safeguard if people were worried that children would be brought back here to go through the ordeal of giving evidence in the United Kingdom courts. That is not a worry if the offences are committed under the Bill. That is of great assistance to us all.
My hon. Friend the Member for Elmet made the point that the primary responsibility for stopping this sort of misconduct does not lie only with this country. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mrs. Golding) gave us some examples of how Thailand is doing a great deal to fulfil its responsibilities, both to its own nationals and internationally. It is tightening its laws on this subject. However, I fear that that may be an isolated example--though I hope that I am wrong.
I hope that, when the Bill gets publicity in the international press--as it surely will--it will encourage other Governments to introduce measures to clamp down on sexual misconduct with children and other vulnerable people in their own states. Hon. Members will then be able to feel that they have done a service in passing the Bill on to the statute book, and that other countries will take up the battle cry and introduce their own legislation to ensure that they play their part.
A minor point concerned me relating to clause 1(3)--the double criminality point--which ties in with the point that I made in response to the hon. Member for
Newcastle-under-Lyme. There may be some offences that are on the statute books of another country but that are never prosecuted.
I have a fear that some defence legal teams will say that, because the offences that we find abhorrent in this country are not rigorously prosecuted in other countries, it will be contrary to public policy, and the Crown Prosecution Service should be discouraged from bringing prosecutions. They may say: if the offences are never brought to book in another country, why should we penalise a potential defendant in this country? Several hon. Members have read out the available punishments for committing serious sexual offences in this country; perhaps the courts abroad are not so willing or so ready to impose the severest penalties.
"The second condition is that that act or other event constitutes an offence under the law in force in that country or territory."
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