| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mrs. Golding: Other countries have had the problems with young children giving evidence that we have experienced. That is why Thailand is making proposals to enable young children to give evidence in court more easily--we have already made progress with that in this country. As other countries realise that laws can be put in force, prosecutions may increase.
Mr. Garnier: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that helpful intervention.
I have briefly discussed the conspiracy aspect of the Bill. I shall now briefly discuss clause 2--the incitement aspect. I must remind myself, if not others, that we are talking about the commission not of the substantive offences but, as the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) rightly reminded us, of inchoate offences--conspiracy and incitement.
Incitement is not a difficult word; it is the encouragement of others to commit a crime. It is the step before the conspiracy. The person incited may be party to the conspiracy with the person inciting. The clause, and the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South, does not mean that innocent children from abroad need to come to this country to give evidence to support the prosecution of those who commit such offences in this country.
In addition to the general thrust of the Bill, what I like about the incitement clauses and the parts thereunder--I am looking now especially at clause 3--is the need for a joining of issues, presumably on paper, before the trial begins.
Clause 3(2) provides:
and then there is a list of things that a defence must include in the notice.
Some people may consider that that reverses the burden of proof and imposes on the defendant a burden that he would not otherwise face under our criminal law, but that interpretation would be wrong. All the clause does--it is a good example of the new policy in criminal trials, which has been in existence in civil actions for years--is bring before the judge, at the earliest possible stage, a joining of issues, so that time is not wasted in a court exploring matters that need not be explored.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South on introducing the clause, because it will sensibly reduce the time that is often wasted on making investigations to produce evidence to go into issues that will not be at issue at trial. It will save time and money, and many people prosecuted under the legislation will be entitled to legal aid--although, if they have been on expensive holidays abroad, perhaps they will not. But much public money will be saved. That issue may not have occurred to people before, but clause 3 addresses it, for which I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South.
I shall ask my right hon. Friend the Minister one question before I finish--I apologise for speaking for longer than I intended. Clause 3(4) states:
I assume that that applies where the defendant has not complied with subsection (2), there has been no joining of issues on paper and the court may, of its own motion, allow a defendant to require the prosecution to show that the condition is satisfied.
What are the ground rules for allowing the court to think it fit? Perhaps either my right hon. Friend the Minister or my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South will respond to that question, if not immediately, perhaps in writing later.
Mr. Jenkin:
I join the many voices in the Chamber in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) on introducing the Bill. I have come here this morning in response to the steady flow of representations that I have received from constituents from all walks of life and to the pressure that has been exerted by organisations mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Alison). I have also come in response to my own conscience on the horrors of the offences that we are discussing. It has not been a particularly enjoyable morning in the House of Commons,
I support the Bill and wish to express my constituents' support for it. But I also wish to express my constituents' anxieties about the continuing perceived shortcomings of the Bill. The amendments that we discussed earlier this morning were a further attempt to deal with the Bill's perceived shortcomings arising from the issue of extra-territoriality. The importance that people attach to the ability of British law to deal with offences in other countries should not be underestimated. The House should not underestimate the mystification that people express at the fact that the House and Parliament are unable to frame effective legislation in order to prosecute people who they believe have committed heinous offences.
Everyone in the House believes that those people have committed heinous offences, and we present ourselves as a sovereign Parliament. The public are therefore mystified as to why it is impossible to frame legislation to prosecute people for offences for which they should be prosecuted. In many countries where British citizens commit offences, systems of law and order, accountability and public administration are wanting--which is why such offences are committed there. Although there is legislation criminalising sex with minors in Thailand, for example, we know that there are few prosecutions for those offences. Constituents must be confident that Parliament is doing its job and implementing much-needed laws. I am concerned that in this Bill we are failing in that task.
I listened carefully to the explanation given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State as to why particular clauses that would apply British law to offences committed outside the United Kingdom cannot appear in the Bill. I listened also to the debate between my right hon. Friend the Member for Selby and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough about the issue.
However, the vast majority of British people will be rather unsympathetic when faced with technical explanations--however satisfactory they may be for lawyers. It is impossible to explain to a layman why a sovereign parliament cannot decide whom it shall prosecute and for what offences, and then introduce laws to conduct that prosecution. Perhaps we need different criminal legislation in this country. It may be that our existing criminal court system and our conventions of criminal evidence, criminal prosecutions and our common law history are inadequate to the task.
Perhaps Parliament should establish a new court with special rules of evidence, special procedures and a special judge to deal with offences that are committed extra-territorially. Perhaps that system should be constructed in isolation from the common law which pervades our criminal justice system. We may have to create a different branch of law through primary legislation to deal with the problem. If the powers that be retreat into technical argument and cower behind the reasoning offered by eminent Queen's Counsels or well-advised Ministers, it creates a lingering sense of unease that we are not doing our job properly.
Mr. Garnier:
My hon. Friend seems to suggest that British courts should have extra-territorial jurisdiction in
Mr. Jenkin:
As we know from the Swedish experience, courts in other countries have extra-territorial jurisdiction. If British nationals who had committed offences returned to certain countries, they could be prosecuted by the courts there. The comparison with the European Court of Justice is not a serious one. Parliament has given that court jurisdiction, through primary legislation, over the domestic law of the land. I do not suggest that we should persuade Thailand to grant jurisdiction to United Kingdom courts over Thai domestic law--that would mean granting powers equivalent to that of the European Court of Justice.
"Subject to subsection (3), a condition in section 1(3) or 2(1)(c) is to be taken to be satisfied unless, not later than rules of court may provide, the defence serve on the prosecution a notice"--
"The court, if it thinks fit, may permit the defence to require the prosecution to show that the condition is satisfied without prior service of a notice under subsection (2)."
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |