| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
6 pm
Thuggery continued too. I am sure that the Secretary of State is well aware that, only a fortnight or three weeks ago, a young man who had had 6 in nails driven through his wrists and ankles was seen on television and in the newspapers. I understand that the nails were driven through his wrists and ankles into a wooden fence and that he was carried into the hospital still fixed to the fence. I see the Ministers nodding, confirming what I had been told. I had hoped that such crucifixions had passed from western society, but it appears that that is not so. I think that Ministers will agree that people who behave in such a way or who have the support of such people should not be admitted into negotiations and should be treated not as a political party but as the thugs and outcasts of society that they are.
Another problem relates to Government representatives. This matter will be touched on later, but perhaps Ministers would like to say something about it now. I have read the papers and discovered that the Government can have five back-ups, but it is not clear who those Government back-ups will be. The Government people are clearly not going to be elected but will be put forward by the Government as their representatives in the negotiations. The Government will therefore have a team of three--presumably, Ministers from the Northern Ireland Office--and five others. Who are these five others going to be? What is intended by having that number? Are these people going to be Members of this House? If not, where will they be drawn from? We shall have to return to such matters.
The Secretary of State is going to have to examine the list of parties. There are a number, but the principal one is Sinn Fein-IRA. The Secretary of State will have to ask himself whether this allegedly political party meets the criteria that have been laid down. We were told earlier that Sinn Fein intended to turn up anyway and cause a scene if it was not allowed in--it has done that before.
When the Secretary of State comes to make that decision, he will have to look at Mr. Adams, Mr. McGuinness, possibly Mr. Kelly and perhaps others who have as yet not appeared to be members of Sinn Fein but are known only to the security forces as the leading murderers and bombers of the IRA. He will be told that they are the negotiators for Sinn Fein. At that point, some other young man might be being nailed to a fence; some young lady, having had her arms and legs smashed, might be being chucked over a hedge; someone accused of being a drug dealer might be lying with a black bag over his head and two bullet holes through it; or a few people, alleged to have misbehaved in Belfast or elsewhere, might be receiving attention with hammers and iron bars, leaving them the thankful patients of what remains of the national health service. The Secretary of State will have to consider all these possibilities when he makes his decision.
Will the Secretary of State tell Sinn Fein the dreadful things that happened? Will he say, for example, that a gang of masked men smashed their way into a house using a sledgehammer to break down the door, that they held the wife and children captive while they wrecked the house and beat up the man, who is now seriously ill in hospital, and that they did something similar the night before and the night before that? The nice, gentle Mr. Adams will be saying, "We're very sorry, it's nothing to do with us. You can't prove it's anything to do with us."
The First Deputy Chairman:
Order. The hon. Gentleman is going rather wide of the amendment.
Mr. Ross:
I am always willing to accept the judgment of the Chair in these matters but, although it might be straining at the limits, I thought what I was saying was relevant to the decision that the Secretary of State will have to make. He will have to decide whether the individuals seeking admission to the talks have any links with the violence perpetrated against citizens of Northern Ireland in the previous 24, 48 or 72 hours.
Is the Secretary of State going to say, "I don't care what you say. My information is that the people involved are members of the Sinn Fein-IRA. These are people with whom you are associated, who are part and parcel of your terrorist, murderous political organisation, and I am not admitting you"? What is the Secretary of State going to do?
The people of Northern Ireland and hon. Members need to understand how the Secretary of State is going to make his decision. I am trying to make it a little easier for him. I am trying to lay down a rigid line behind which he can stand, thus placing the onus not on his judgment or on the reports that he receives from the security forces or those investigating the crimes but on the thugs and murderers. They will have to prove that they were not involved and that the activities about which complaints had been made were carried out by others for other reasons.
Mr. Ancram:
I listened with great care to the hon. Gentleman. The amendments relate to the requirement placed on the Secretary of State to invite the nominating representatives of each party to submit elected delegates from among whom a team will be formed to participate in the negotiations. If that requirement were not met, the Secretary of State would have to refrain from issuing such invitations.
We all share the hon. Gentleman's horror at the outrages to which he referred. The requirements set out in subsections (2) and (3) relate to the Command Paper and,
indeed, are the basis of the next group of amendments. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will therefore forgive me if I do not deal directly at this stage with the points that he raised; I think that they form a necessary part of our discussions on the next group of amendments.
I have examined the amendments closely. I think that amendment No. 108 is another way of saying what the Government have sought to do in clause 2(3). I do not think that its effect would be any different. Were we to accept his amendment, some further amendments would be required to clarify what the Secretary of State's duty would refer to in those circumstances. On that basis, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.
Amendment No. 107 does not alter the effect of the clause either. In fact, I think that it improves the drafting of the clause and makes it clearer, and I am pleased to say that the Government are happy to accept it.
Mr. Ross:
I am very grateful to have carried the Minister a millimetre with me. He said that before he could accept amendment No. 108 he would have to table further amendments and that further changes would have to be made, but he has not made clear to the Committee exactly what the effect would be. Perhaps he can go further. I would like a further explanation because I do not think that he went far enough.
Mr. Ancram:
I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would not want a technical explanation, but I am happy to give it to him. Clause 2(2) imposes a duty on the Secretary of State to invite the nomination for negotiating teams, as I said earlier. Clause 2(3) qualifies that duty and therefore talks of the Secretary of State refraining from issuing invitations if certain requirements are not met. I presume that the hon. Gentleman's concern is economy of expression since the change is not material. The phrase "refrain from inviting" was designed as a way in which to clarify the fact that subsection (3) detracts from the duty in subsection (2) without having to use words like "subject to" or others of that kind. Our aim was also economy of expression. On that basis, I would prefer to stay with what we have, since the effect is the same. As I said, I bow to the hon. Gentleman's improvement of amendment No. 107, and I hope that he will accept my gratitude for having drawn it to our attention.
Mr. Ross:
I am very grateful to the Minister for his further explanation and I am happy to abide by his comments. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: No. 107, in page 1, line 18, leave out 'or' and insert 'and shall'.--[Mr. William Ross.]
Mr. Peter Robinson:
I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 1, line 19, leave out from the second 'as' to end of line 21 and insert
The First Deputy Chairman:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss also the following: Government amendment No. 27.
Amendment No. 93, in page 1, line 20, leave out 'Command Paper 3232' and insert
Amendment No. 106, in page 1, line 20, after 'met', insert 'in full'.
Amendment No. 105, in page 1, line 20, leave out from 'met' to the end of line 21 and insert
'that party:--
(a) is attached to a proscribed organisation which is listed in Schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991, and which
(i) has not declared, and is not presently honouring, a permanent and total cessation of violence; and
(ii) has not surrendered its illegal weaponry; and
(iii) has not dismantled its paramilitary structure, and
(i) exclusively peaceful means; and
(ii) abide by the democratic process.'.
'the Report of the Mitchell Commission'.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |