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9 pm
Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South): I declare an interest, in that I was born and bred in Dublin, and I come from a family that has lived in Ireland for centuries. Probably my first memory is of Dublin during the war, when the bombs were falling, and my second memory is of the stories told me by my grandfather, who was involved in 1916. My father
woke on Easter day 1916 to see that his Easter egg had been hit by a bullet in the first moments of the rising. He never found out whether it was an English or an Irish bullet.
Eighty years later, we have an opportunity to turn back the clock for once, and to begin to think afresh. Are we to continue to fight the wars of 80 years ago and of 180 years ago, and even those of the 13th and 14th century--the time when my family first went to Ireland? Or shall we, as surely we must, begin to think about how we can take things forward?
This is probably the first time during the 13 years that I have been in the House that I have spoken on Irish matters in the Chamber. I have put my name to two of the amendments in the group, including that relating to the chairperson of the forum, and how that person should be appointed, because it seems to me that the forum, with all its faults, failings and limitations, represents a step forward, at long last. The differing views--they are numerous, and let us not underestimate them--will be aired, fully and frankly, I hope.
I take on board many of the fears and worries expressed by the hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley). Those fears and worries are realistic, because everything always takes place against the background of what happened yesterday, of the memories we all have, and of what we were taught as children about what happened in the past. However, there has to come a time when we put those memories behind us and think forward to the Ireland that we want to emerge.
I am not so conceited as to say that I have a solution of any sort. With the Irish, of both north and south, a little humility might not be bad thing. We should all accept that things have happened in history of which none of us is proud. Attitudes have been taken and deeds done which none of us can justify in the modern world.
I will keep my plea to the Government and the forum short, because one of the disadvantages of being an Irishman is that one can speak for ever and a day. We are well used to that; it is one of our great failings.
Mr. William Ross:
I have listened with interest to the hon. Gentleman. He used a phrase that people should reflect on. He said that things that happened long ago would not be acceptable when viewed in the light of the modern world. That, however, is not the point of history. Many things have happened in the history of all nations that are not acceptable in a modern light. Indeed, there are things happening today--certainly, things have happened in our lifetimes--that are not acceptable, but they still happen.
Some of what was done in the past, by all nations, was done in the light of those people's view of the circumstances of the time and of the dangers in which they perceived themselves to be. I do not know whether that helps the hon. Gentleman, but it is dangerous to judge the past with modern views and 20:20 hindsight. That is never helpful.
Mr. Bermingham:
The hon. Gentleman goes down the path that I seek to go down. The things that happened 50, 60 or 70 years ago, happened in the context of their time. The people involved, whether they were right or wrong
People will have to make sacrifices, from whatever quarter of the political spectrum they come. The hon. Member for North Antrim is right; one has to give up things when one takes part in public life. Whether one is a parish or district councillor or plays any other role in public life, we should not forget that those roles entail sacrifice.
Those who will play their part in the forum will make sacrifices. They may lose their jobs or their friends--people may disagree with their participation in the body--but they will make the sacrifice and play their part. From whatever part of the political spectrum they come, I hope that they will make their points forcefully and well, but in the spirit of looking to tomorrow. That leads me to my amendments, which deal with who is to be the independent chairman of the forum.
Should we look to the party that has the most seats? I believe that that would set the forum back. If we looked to someone in the forum, that would, in its way, set the body back. That is why my amendments talk of an independent chairman. I do not envy the person who will chair the body. It will probably be the most nightmarish task. There will be many conflicting factions and disputes. There is so much at stake that the person who performs that function must be someone who has the respect of the forum as a whole.
Rev. Ian Paisley:
I have been listening to the hon. Gentleman carefully. The only time that I had the opportunity to talk about these matters outside the House with him, we had an interesting and helpful discussion. His argument was made to us in respect of the Prior assembly. Who would we get to chair that assembly? Who could control the people attending it? We got one of ourselves, the late Sir James Kilfedder.
When the election was being fought, no one would have said that he would have been the ideal man to chair it, but all parties that sat under him thought that he did well. They did not always agree with what he did. I did not agree with him when he threw out some of my members and rebuked me for saying things that, had I said them in this House, would have been ruled in order. But that assembly did well under his chairmanship.
I am not so sanguine as to think that, when we get all these people together, there will not be someone among them able to manage the chair of the assembly. I think that it would be--
The Second Deputy Chairman:
Order. I am sorry to interrupt, but I gave a warning earlier about interventions being shorter. I call the hon. Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham).
Mr. Bermingham:
I take on board what the hon. Member for North Antrim says. I was listening with interest to his intervention, because I thought that he was coming round to my way of thinking.
The forum itself may throw up the person, and we were given a classic example there--someone who will command respect. One might find what I would call the independent chairman from within the forum. One might find him or her from without. I speak in the singular, rather than taking the politically correct stance of using the word "person", for which I apologise. "Chairperson" is a phrase of which I am not particularly fond, but be that as it may.
The outcome must be that the person commands respect. That person will have a formidable task on his or her hands. He or she must reflect the confidence of the forum. If that is achieved, and this is why the amendment stands in the way it does, in my view--it is a purely personal view--it would be the first step forward. One would then have an organisation that had someone it respected to command the way in which it was run.
I have listened carefully to hon. Members speaking to the other amendments in the group and I believe that the forum should not be merely an idle ship. It should play an important part, and be able to discuss a number of matters. I am not suggesting that it should have legislative, executive or any other powers, but it is an opportunity for people to discuss and debate various aspects of life in Northern Ireland to their mutual advantage. I do not know what will come from such discussions. Perhaps when people talk, ideas begin to flow, seeds are sown and new ideas grow. Like Mark Antony at the funeral of Julius Caesar, I have come not to praise the forum, merely to wish it well.
I sink back into my own Irish history, strongly urging on the Secretary of State the concept of an independent chairperson for the forum.
Mr. Trimble:
I endorse much of what the hon. Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham) said. I agree that the forum offers an important opportunity--a valuable opportunity for the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland to debate, discuss and take evidence and to carry the debate forward positively. I am sure that the decision about electing a chairman, which will have to be carried out through the weighted majority of 75 per cent., will ensure a degree of independence. It will be interesting to see whether we manage to find the appropriate chairman from within the personnel of the forum. That remains to be seen.
Like the hon. Members for North Antrim and for St. Helens, South, I am anxious to ensure that the forum has the opportunity to engage in wide debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry, East tabled amendments that refer to the ability of the forum to debate and make recommendations. The reason for tabling such amendments is the apparently restrictive wording in clause 3.
I take the view that the words in clause 3 do not restrict the forum's ability to debate any issue that it regards as
If that rubric of
gives the forum the opportunity to discuss any issue it considers to be relevant to those broad considerations, I am sure the forum will think that there is a wide range of matters that could be discussed.
"relevant to promoting dialogue and understanding within Northern Ireland."
"promoting dialogue and understanding within Northern Ireland"
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