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The Chairman: On the parameters of the debate, we are discussing amendment No. 114. While the hon. Gentleman is making a powerful speech, most of it would be more appropriate to the clause stand part debate.
Mr. Stott: I am grateful for your guidance, Mr. Morris. I was about to conclude. I was in my peroration when you kindly brought me back to order. I was going so well that I thought I would give it a final shot. Everyone has been saying what the forum cannot do. It cannot legislate or have any influence on the negotiating teams; it cannot do this, that or the other. We want to know what it can do.
Mr. Peter Robinson: Over the past half hour, I have listened to the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) agonise over how he might explain why the SDLP could support and take part in a non-elected forum in the Irish Republic but would not take part in an elected forum in Northern Ireland. I do not think that he convinced the House that he had a realistic solution to that conundrum. It is clear that he is still struggling with it himself.
I listened to the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) build up straw men so that he could knock them down. The idea of having, as part of the process, a forum with legislative, administrative or executive authority, was never in any of our dreams. It was not part of the process that we envisaged. It would not be the sort of process that would be likely to succeed and get the result that all the people of Northern Ireland want.
The process is undoubtedly capable of ending with an agreement that would give Northern Ireland a form of government that would include a legislative, executive and administrative structure, but that would come out of agreement under the process, not from the process itself. If I take anything from what the hon. Member for South Down said, it is that his party--and to this extent I can understand where he is coming from--does not want to concede by way of process what it would not wish to concede as part of the negotiations. If that is his argument, he must remember that Unionists could equally say that there are many parts of the process, taken as a whole, that would have the same effect for them if they believed that, by accepting something as part of the process, they were giving a nod and a wink that it would be acceptable as part of an overall settlement. He should not be nervous about accepting as part of the process something that he may want to improve as part of the settlement as a whole.
Our amendments are not intended to undermine the negotiating process. Not one of them undermines that process. First, they attempt to elicit some information from the Government as to what the forum will do--in the way that the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Stott) was attempting to do. The position is as vague as the hon. Gentleman suggested.
The fact that the forum's role is to be "deliberative only" gives no clear sign of whether it will even be able to vote on issues. If it is able only to deliberate, will it be able to resolve any issues? If it has resolved a matter, will it be able to pass on that resolution to others? Is it entitled to produce a report and, if it is, can it hand it on to others, whether the Secretary of State or the negotiating participants? None of that is clear on the basis of the one clause, which gives little information about the forum. Indeed, the clause that deals with the forum tells us what it cannot do as opposed to what it can.
When the Government respond to this group of amendments, can they say whether the forum will be allowed to arrive at decisions and transmit them to others? Will there be any limit on what it can deliberate on and what it can send by way of resolution to the negotiating teams and the Secretary of State?
Today, we received a communication from the Minister with responsibility for the talks process, which gave some indication of the work of the forum. He said that it might meet once in the week. That seems to be a further attempt on the Government's part to diminish its role. Perhaps the Minister can say during this debate whether any limits
will be imposed, other than those set down in the clause, which suggest that, if negotiations are taking place at a plenary level--I assume that that is what he means by it--the Secretary of State will tell the chairman of the forum that it would not be appropriate for it to meet. Other than the limitation imposed by that clause, can the forum choose when to meet? It is important for us to know to what extent the Secretary of State is going to neuter and limit its role in all those matters.
It is in the interests of the negotiators, who will be drawn from the same parties that will be present in the forum, to get work done for them there. The hon. Member for South Down said that there was nothing to stop the good and the wise giving their evidence to the negotiators. I dread to think what will happen if the negotiating teams act as a forum and take evidence of that kind. It would clearly not be appropriate; nor is that a body that has any democratic weight to take such evidence. I trust, therefore, that we will be clear that all the work of taking evidence from the general public--whether from interest groups or others--will be done by the forum.
No hon. Member should be concerned that the forum will have that sole task, because all those in the negotiations are entitled--wearing their forum hats--to be present during that sort of session. I trust that we were not given an indication that the SDLP will confine itself to the work of the negotiating process and not go into the forum--almost obeying what Sinn Fein is requiring. That would be an unwise step. I do not believe that the community that the SDLP represents in Northern Ireland will restrict itself by not giving evidence to the forum in such sessions.
Sinn Fein, from its tactical point of view, would be making a grave mistake if it boycotted the forum, which might be the only place where it will be entitled to go under the legislation. It would not be prohibited from going into the forum and expressing views, but it might be prohibited from entering the negotiating process. Perhaps Sinn Fein is beginning to take account of that and regrets some of the remarks that its spokesmen have been making.
I trust that we shall have a full answer from the Minister when he replies to all the issues that have been raised. It is essential that, at this stage--rather than some time after the election--those who will be part of the forum learn from the Government what they will be elected to. It is not outrageous to suggest that the Government should tell them what they will do after they are elected, particularly if they are to give up their job to go into this worthwhile venture. It is not going over the top to ask the Government to tell them that they might have a particular role during the next year or two.
Mr. Ancram:
I think I can say with some feeling that we have had a full and interesting debate on this topic, which has ranged widely over the variety of amendments before us and occasionally, as you have pointed out, Mr. Morris, a little more widely than that. I shall try to remain within the rules of order in replying to the debate, but there may be occasions when, in doing so, I have to be cautious not to go beyond the parameters of the amendments.
The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) asked some important questions, but by and large they related to schedule 2, with which we shall deal later. He will see that the times of meetings of the forum will be determined by the members of the forum, subject to one qualification with which I am sure that we shall deal in depth when we come to it. He will also see that schedule 2(3) says that the proceedings of the forum
I am not trying to avoid answering the hon. Gentleman's question--that is a relevant question to ask--but it is right to pursue it in the context of schedule 2, when we shall consider the details of the way in which the forum will work. However, there is no doubt that tonight's debate has been useful to the extent that it has, I hope, made it clear beyond doubt that what the forum is not is a Stormont or a legislative body and that it does not bear resemblance to the forums of the 1970s and 1980s. Indeed, we have gone to great lengths in the Bill to ensure that we have in the statute a number of statements that show firmly that the extent of the capabilities of the forum are rightly limited. Several of those limits have been mentioned tonight and I shall deal with them in my reply.
It is important that we remember that the purpose of the forum, as set out in clause 3, is to promote dialogue and understanding within Northern Ireland and that many of the fears that have been expressed would run contrary to that purpose. It is right to examine those fears in the light of the purpose of the clause, which is the promotion of dialogue and understanding by deliberative action only.
It is difficult to reply to a debate of this length in any consistent form, but I shall try to reply to the amendments, and I hope to pick up on the points that were made as I go through. I hope that hon. Members will feel that I reply fully to the debate.
Some two hours ago, we started with the amendment of the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross)--amendment No. 114--which requires that an accurate record of the deliberations of the forum be published and that its recommendations be made available to the negotiating teams and to the Secretary of State. That was a good place to start, because it reminded the Committee that it is the Government's intention that the forum should be a public body and that its work should be widely known. We believe that to be part of its fulfilling its purpose of promoting dialogue and understanding, so it is implicit in the nature of its functions. I do not say this facetiously--the point has been raised in seriousness; the forum is not there to promote dissent and mistrust. We have to look at the ways in which it can promote dialogue and understanding.
Public access to the information that comes out of the forum is, therefore, important. We hope that its work will be widely reported. We hope that constructive
conclusions, which we believe can emerge from it, will be helpful in the climate in which the political process is proceeding.
"shall be conducted in accordance with rules of procedure determined by the members of the forum and approved by the Secretary of State."
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