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Mr. William Ross: Amendment No. 126, which stands in my name, is merely a probing amendment. Later in the Bill, the Government state that people on the local election register will be eligible to vote, whereas I suggest in the amendment that the Government should use the
parliamentary register. I should be grateful if the Minister would explain why the Government have chosen one register rather than another. We should be aware that, in Northern Ireland, there is considerable interest in who votes in a particular election, and the reason why the Government have chosen the parliamentary register will be of great interest to many people.
I wholly support amendment No. 31, which demands the setting out of the question to be put in a referendum. Over the years we have become familiar with how words can be twisted and how questions can be construed in different ways because of the ambiguous language that is used. I am sure that the Secretary of State will understand that, in such an important matter, absolute precision of language is needed so that folk are under no illusions about what they are voting for and so that there is no doubt in their minds as to the question that they are being asked. The Government should accept this simple and straightforward amendment because it is central to the whole referendum question. If it is not accepted, there will be grave suspicion that, somewhere along the line, someone will try to use vague, woolly wording, which would be totally unacceptable to the people of Northern Ireland, especially those on this Bench.
Mr. Dowd:
We may get through this batch of amendments in record time, certainly compared with the proceedings heretofore.
I know that on Second Reading the Minister went through the point that the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) has just made. He quoted the figures involved and the differences between the registers. The Secretary of State also addressed the point in his Second Reading speech. We understood the numbers, but I do not think that we elucidated precisely the reason for the preference. If the Secretary of State reiterated it now, I am sure that it would allay the qualms of the hon. Member for East Londonderry.
To reiterate the query raised my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan), under clause 4(4) it looks as if the Secretary of State can assume powers from other individuals. We would like to know in what circumstances that would take effect and to what purpose.
On amendment No. 31, the point made by the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) about the wording of any referendum that may be held is extremely valid. The notable referendums on the border in 1971 and the European Community in 1975 were introduced through primary legislation and went through the normal processes in the House. The opportunity was therefore given to hon. Members to amend the question therein. Under subsection (4), not only would the question to be put be implemented by secondary legislation, under which, as the hon. Member for Upper Bann says, Members would not have the chance to reconsider or amend the wording, but there would not even be an opportunity to know what the question was.
If an order were laid before the House that maintained that a referendum would be held but the question was not set out in it, would it be laid before the question had been decided or would it be passed and the question decided subsequently? Under either of those two permutations, what process of consultation would the Government undertake in attempting to determine the precise wording of the referendum question?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I shall first deal with amendment No. 31. The question that I have been asked is simply whether the order will contain the words of the question. The answer is yes, it should do. I am advised that under the existing wording in the Bill it would be so required, but in case there is any doubt, I am very happy to accept the amendment. So that is that out of the way. I am glad that the hon. Member for Upper Bann was sitting comfortably.
Mr. William Ross:
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I must have shaken the hon. Gentleman. I am coming to his amendment; I cannot do quite the same in respect of him. On amendment No. 126, I can understand the hon. Gentleman's case that there is no real need for the Secretary of State to have discretion in the area and that it would be as well to put the issue beyond doubt on the face of the Bill. However, the provision is common. Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 also confers such a discretion on the Secretary of State in respect of border polls.
The House of Commons would have the opportunity to vote down any order under clause 4(2) that applied any improper franchise for any referendum. The hon. Member for East Londonderry asked why a selection was made of the parliamentary franchise. We went into this on Second Reading. There is a very slight difference--about 70--in the number of electors. The difference is accounted for by the fact that the parliamentary franchise includes 79 registered overseas voters, but excludes nine peers resident in Northern Ireland, which seems rather a pity. [Hon. Members: "Why?] Exactly. Why?
In principle, it might be thought more appropriate for the franchise for any referendum to reflect the potential implications for local residents. On that basis, the local government register rather than the parliamentary franchise would be more appropriate, which perhaps illustrates the value of leaving the issue to be dealt with by order rather than on the face of the Bill.
I can also accept amendment No. 86, tabled by the hon. Member for Falkirk, West. Subsection (4) was put in as a safety net, but as the drafting of the elections order has proceeded, it has become clear that it is unnecessary. I do not wish to prolong matters at this stage of the evening. Two out of three is not bad.
Mr. Cash:
Would my right hon. and learned Friend be good enough--
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse):
Order. Is the Secretary of State giving way?
Mr. Cash:
Would my right hon. and learned Friend be kind enough--
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I have accepted amendments Nos. 31 and 86.
Mr. Cash:
Would my right hon. and learned Friend be kind enough to address the point--
The First Deputy Chairman:
Order. The Secretary of State has not given way.
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
If I may have the indulgence of the Committee, I shall answer my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash). My hon. Friend asked whether clause 4 would enable the Secretary of State to hold a referendum on any matter, including a single currency or any matter connected to the European Union. The strict answer to that is yes, as drafted, it would. It would have to be said that such a matter would be a matter relating to Northern Ireland. However, the power is time limited, expiring in May 1999, and the power to direct a referendum rests with the Secretary of State. I am in no position to give any binding undertaking, but I can give a very firm expectation that a referendum, if any, connected with any European matter would be introduced on a United Kingdom basis and not on a Northern Ireland-only basis.
Mr. Canavan:
I thank the Secretary of State for accepting my amendment. I hope that it is a portent of things to come.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment made: No. 86, in page 2, line 25, leave out subsection (4).--[Mr. Canavan.]
Mr. Dowd:
I beg to move amendment No. 32, in page 2, line 29, leave out subsection (5).
That was one of the most productive 15 minutes since we began our consideration of the Bill. I shall be brief. The elections--
Mr. Ancram:
Perhaps I can help the hon. Gentleman--
Mr. Dowd:
I did not think that I would be quite that brief.
Mr. Ancram:
The hon. Gentleman inspired me by his remarks about being productive. It may help him to know that, although there is nothing untoward about subsection (5), it is clear from the Second Reading debate that there is a broad and possibly sufficient consensus ranged against it. I am prepared to accept the amendment.
Mr. Dowd:
I am completely fazed, Sir Geoffrey; one does not even have to work for a living in this place any more. However, I am delighted that our previous rate of progress is being continued, and I accept the Minister's assurance.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Peter Robinson:
I beg to move amendment No. 141, in page 2, line 39, leave out from 'person' to end of line 41 and insert
The First Deputy Chairman:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss also the following amendments: No. 92, in page 2, line 39, leave out from 'who' to end of line 41 and insert
'whom that party in Northern Ireland itself determines to be its leader.'.
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