| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
'is nominated as such by that party'.
No. 82, in page 2, line 39, at end insert 'chairman or'.
No. 9, in page 2, line 40, after 'party', insert 'in Northern Ireland'.
No. 80, in page 2, line 40, after 'party', insert
No. 123, in page 2, line 40, after 'party', insert
No. 33, in page 2, line 40, leave out from 'party' to end of line 41.
No. 81, in page 2, line 40, after 'person', insert
Mr. Robinson:
Two of the amendments in the group stand in the names of my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) and myself. The intention of amendment No. 141 is clear. The Secretary of State, for some reason so far unknown to us, believes that he has a better knowledge and capacity to determine the leadership of political parties in Northern Ireland, and no doubt beyond, than the membership of the parties themselves.
I can think of nothing more absurd than the Secretary of State in the full exercise of the powers that he seeks for himself in the clause, determining that the leader of a political party should be someone other than the leader that the party itself has chosen. Yet under the clause the Secretary of State will be able so to determine.
Can anybody imagine the difficulties that would be presented if the right hon. and learned Gentleman were to exercise that power? I think that the temptation should be taken from him, and that instead we should have within the clause the sensible provision that the party itself should be able to determine who its leader should be at any given time.
Also in connection with the amendment, we should recall the fact that some of the parties that contest the elections in Northern Ireland may not be parties exclusive to Northern Ireland. Some of them may be parties that range over the whole of the United Kingdom, and some may be parties that range over the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Will the Secretary of State therefore determine who should be designated the leader of parties whose main leadership lies in the Republic of Ireland? If so, should not their leader in Northern Ireland be
determined for the purposes of the Bill to be the person properly to exercise the functions of the leader, or "nominating representative"?
I do not want to tread on the Secretary of State's toes, but the provision is there for a specific purpose; it has to do with some local difficulties in the Conservative party. Clearly the Secretary of State is concerned that a "native view" of the Conservative party could be represented by the people who would be elected in Northern Ireland by one means or another--by the constituency lists or through the rigged regional lists--and that those people might present themselves to the negotiating process and put a view that was not in line with the view of Ministers. Indeed, theirs might be a view contrary to that of Ministers--and that might be no bad thing.
Clearly the Secretary of State wants to be able to step in at that stage and say, "Look, you boys can't come. The person I am designating as the 'nominating representative' of the Tory participants in the talks will be the chairman of the Tory party. Although you have been elected to take part in the process, he may determine not to nominate any of you."
Indeed, outside the Chamber the threat has already been made that, although people may win a place in the election in Northern Ireland, they will be barred by the chairman of the Tory party from taking their places in the negotiating process.
That would lead to the absurdity of the Conservative party being represented at the talks by people who had not been elected by the people of Northern Ireland--indeed, I suggest, by people who could not get elected by the people of Northern Ireland--while those who had been so elected were kept outside the door. I am sure that the House would not want to do something so undemocratic.
By this route, the Secretary of State is attempting to overcome problems in his party; but in doing so, he is creating several other problems. Will Proinsias de Rossa, as the leader of one of the other parties, be a nominating representative? Will a Dublin Minister make nominations for parties that would be elected in Northern Ireland and decide whether they come to the negotiating process? Are they to have double representation in the negotiating process? Both the Government and one of the partners in Government in the Irish Republic could be represented twice--locally in Northern Ireland, and through their Government as part of the large team that they wish to bring to the negotiating process.
The basic principle for democrats is that they should accept the democratic decision of political parties as to who their leaders should be. If the Secretary of State interferes with that, it will cause great anger in Northern Ireland, and not only in the party that would be affected by it. I therefore trust that he will, on reflection, recognise that the problems that would be caused by this provision, which is designed to overcome some of his own difficulties, mean that it would be better left out. He has accepted amendments from almost every body of opinion except my party, and this may be an opportunity for him to accept one of ours.
Mr. Trimble:
I agree with the principle that underlies the amendment of the hon. Member for Belfast, East because it also underlies amendment No. 33, which I have tabled. I disagree with him about the detail, but the important thing is the principle. Both
The hon. Member for Belfast, East is right about the origin of the provision. It has been put in because of the structural difficulties that the Secretary of State's party has in Northern Ireland. His local difficulties with the Conservative party cannot justify giving him a discretionary power to select, in effect, who will be the leader of other parties. Other parties have their own procedures for electing leaders, and there is an obligation on the Secretary of State to accept the people who they have elected as their leaders. It is improper for him to give himself a discretionary power to disregard the leadership of a party and select someone else as the nominating representative. He must accept one of the amendments to remove that discretion.
The only question is about the manner in which it should be done. Amendment No. 33 would oblige the Secretary of State to accept as the nominating representative the leader of the party concerned. That means that the Conservatives in Northern Ireland would have to rest content with their party's method of identifying their party leader, who would, of course, be the Prime Minister. I see no reason why he, as the leader of the Conservative party, should not act in the same way as other party leaders.
That is a detail. The detail is one thing; the principle is a matter of considerable importance. It is improper for the Secretary of State to take unto himself a sweeping power that is potentially disruptive of the internal order of all political parties in Northern Ireland. It must be withdrawn.
Mr. Wilshire:
I was touched by the concern for my party's welfare shown by the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson)--so much so that he might care to consider joining my party: his moderating influence within it would be useful to us.
In the past hour, it has become deeply fashionable for my right hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench to leap up and say, "We'll accept it." I have three amendments in this group, and I have carefully drafted a two-hour speech. To get to bed early, I will willingly give way if a Minister wants to leap to his feet and say that he will accept them. Perhaps he will not, so I shall explain that amendment No. 80 defines the word "party" in the Bill as meaning that part of the party that is in Northern Ireland or one of the individual constituencies. Amendment No. 81 defines "leader" in this context as the leader of the party in Northern Ireland or in one of its individual constituencies. Amendment No. 82 clarifies the fact that "leader" does not necessarily mean what the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) said. Here it has a small "l", and it could be the chairman or the leader, rather than a specific office holder.
Amendment No. 80 is the key, as far as I am concerned. It makes it clear that it is the party--whichever party--in Northern Ireland that does the nominating. I need to explain why I consider the amendment necessary.
As I read the suggestion, my party is once again having a little local difficulty with the way in which it goes about its affairs in Northern Ireland. There has been a continuing disagreement between the party hierarchy and the grass
roots. The party is finding it difficult to decide whether we should fight the elections and, if we should, to sort out who should select the candidates.
Of course we should fight those elections. A political party exists in a country to fight elections. Northern Ireland is part of my country, and we exist to fight elections in that part of it as well as everywhere else. The fact that people might not vote for us is another matter, but it is up to the people to decide, not the party hierarchy.
The justification is that, as a Conservative party, we have decided, for better or worse, to organise in Northern Ireland. It is our right and privilege, and if other people choose not to do so, that is their privilege. On the back of that decision, we have agreed to accept subscriptions from individual citizens living in Northern Ireland to join our party. When I first came into the Conservative party, I was always taught that we owed it to our members to allow them to stand up and be counted if that was what they wanted to do.
We owe it to the people where we organise to give them the privilege of voting for us or rejecting us, once we are an organised party in that area. If that is so--I believe it to be--as I have always maintained, one of the things that we hold particularly dear within the party is that it is a cardinal principle that each constituency association selects its own candidates. I cannot speak for any other party, but all of us on the Conservative Benches owe it to our constituency to decide that it is us and not another Conservative whose name appears on the ballot paper. That principle should be followed in this case.
The Government have chosen to say that the elections will be run in individual constituencies. For me, that shows where the final responsibility for the decision to put forward candidates lies, and who those candidates shall be.
My amendment No. 81 takes that argument one step further. Another difficulty which has been touched on is that, even if local people can decide to fight the elections and are able to select their own candidates, the Bill still says that the leader nominates the negotiating team. The hon. Member for Upper Bann put his finger on the problem exactly. The Bill says that someone on the mainland, not in Northern Ireland, will be the person who puts forward Conservative names for the negotiations. In my judgment, that loophole has to be closed.
Amendment No. 81 says that the person who puts forward the names is the chairman or the leader of the Conservative party in Northern Ireland, if there is such a person, or, if there is not, the leader or chairman in the individual Conservative associations.
There is another loophole, which was touched on a moment ago. It is possible to put forward names from people living on the mainland, not in Northern Ireland. Although it is not in this group, I have tabled another amendment which says that a person cannot be nominated to take part in the negotiations if he or she lives on the mainland. That, I hope, will deal with that loophole.
Amendment No. 82 is technical: it says that a chairman or a leader can do the nominating. My own party prefers to have chairmen within local parties rather than leaders.
'in Northern Ireland or in an individual Northern Ireland parliamentary constituency'.
'in Northern Ireland in cases where the party has its Headquarters elsewhere in the United Kingdom'.
'in Northern Ireland or in an individual Northern Ireland parliamentary constituency.'.
12.45 am
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |