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Mr. Canavan: Unity is breaking out all round. I agreed with almost everything that was said by the hon. Member for Belfast, East when he moved amendment No. 141, and with much of what was said by the hon. Member for Upper Bann. My amendment No. 92 would make clause 5(1) read:
- "In this Act 'nominating representative' in relation to a party means the person who is nominated as such by that party."
My understanding of the Bill is that the nominating representative does not have to be an elected delegate. The Secretary of State would have discretionary power over who was to be the nominating representative.
The nominating representative has the important function of, in effect, choosing the party's team of negotiators. In the interests of democracy and decentralised democracy, the parties in Northern Ireland should decide who their nominating representatives and their negotiators are. In this instance, the amendment of the hon. Member for Belfast, East is better worded than mine. Therefore, I am prepared to withdraw my amendment in the interests of his amendment.
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
The most reassuring and succinct way in which I can begin my reply to this short debate is to say that there is absolutely no funny business involved in the wording of the provision under discussion. I think that the amendments stem from a misunderstanding of what the provision says and what it intends to achieve.
The Bill does not allow the Secretary of State to decide the leader of a party. Under the Bill, he has to make a sensible judgment--which he will do in consultation with the party concerned, because that is the whole point--as to who is the leader; that is, who has been chosen by the party through its procedures, or, because some parties do not like to have leaders and make a point of not having leaders, who is the most appropriate person to act for the party.
Mr. Corbyn:
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I shall expand on my point and then give way to the hon. Member.
Because we foresaw in the circumstances of Northern Ireland that we might be confronted by assertions that this was to discriminate against a party that did not have a leader, and made a point of not having a leader, which might lead to all sorts of unnecessary complications, in drafting the Bill we sought to approach this point in what I believe to be a sensible way that would enable the Secretary of State to make a choice that is no more than a means to an end.
The Secretary of State will get lists, which can be validated, of negotiating teams from the delegates. There may be perfectly good reasons why a party might want to say, for example, "In making your choice, Secretary of State, please take account of the fact that we want our general secretary to be our nominated representative." We have consulted in this regard, and some parties suggested names that were not their leaders. Some parties may take exception to the concept that they should have a leader. This Bill does not force them to do so, but the amendment would. That is what it is all about.
Mr. Corbyn:
The Secretary of State seems to me to be making heavy weather of a ridiculous power that he has taken on himself. Why does he want to get involved in who should be the leader or the representative of a political party? Obviously, if they choose one person and he decides to choose someone else, the person he chooses will have no credibility either within his own party or within any other party. Why does the Secretary of State want to get involved in all of this?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I do not wish to get involved in who is the leader of a political party--I want to get involved in who shall be a validating nominator for the purposes of the Bill. I want to be able to select someone, to invite someone, who will be able to do the job with credibility. I am very happy when a party says, "We have a chairman or a leader, and we wish them to undertake these functions." Naturally, I am very happy to say, "Of course, that is the person I shall invite."
As I sought to explain, it is where a party has no leader that I wish to be able, within the wording of the Bill, to choose someone who would be the appropriate person to act on behalf of the party for purposes of its own. If it is of any reassurance, I am happy to repeat that that is the sole purpose of the provision.
Mr. Wilshire:
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr. Corbyn:
Will the Secretary of State give way again?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I think my hon. Friend got in first.
Mr. Wilshire:
I hear what my right hon. and learned Friend said. He has advanced an argument to say why one should not specify "leader", and certainly why one should not accept my amendment to specify "chairman". He has advanced no argument to say why one should not invite a party to specify someone. Will he therefore tell us that he is prepared to table an amendment on Report or in another place that simply says that a person in the party shall put forward the names, and leave it to the party to
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I doubt that that is necessary, because we are dealing with a party and, under the scheme of the Bill, we wish the party to identify to the Secretary of State someone who shall be invited as its nominating representative to perform the functions for which the Bill provides. It is for the party to be consulted on these matters, and I give an undertaking that in every instance I shall consult the party. That is the sole purpose of the wording.
I understand why these points are being taken, but I very much hope that, in the light of that explanation and of my undertaking, hon. Members will be reassured.
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I give way to the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn).
Mr. Corbyn:
I am sorry to tell the Secretary of State that I am not in the least bit reassured. He is taking unto himself the sort of powers that Stalin had to decide who was regional secretary of the Communist party of the Soviet Union in whatever republic he happened to remember it was. There are plenty of similar examples throughout the world.
It is nonsense. The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) and me says that the party shall nominate a representative. It does not say leader; it says representative. If the amendment is all to do with the Conservative party, why does not the Secretary of State table his own amendment, saying that he shall nominate the leader of the Conservative party, but all other parties may nominate their own leader?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
Tremendous speculation and a great deal of amusement derive from references to the Conservative party in this. I do not want, at this hour of the night, to delay the Committee by repeating what lies behind the wording.
If I may take up the points--
Mr. William Ross:
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
No; I am just about to deal with what my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne said.
Amendment No. 82, which my hon. Friend tabled, would define "nominating representative" for the purpose of the Bill as the person who appeared to the Secretary of State
to be
I believe that that is an attempt to provide a basis in the Bill for the designation of a specific person in connection
with the Conservative party. That is not germane to the reasoning behind the wording.
My hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne asked for three questions to be answered. I shall not recite them. I say only that, under the wording of the Bill, the Conservative party is entitled to stand in these elections. The answers to those questions are the responsibility of those other than myself, and I cannot take the answers to those questions any further.
Mr. Wilshire:
I understand my right hon. and learned Friend's reluctance, but, as we know that the Conservative party in Northern Ireland wants to fight, to choose its own candidates and to put forward its own names, surely my right hon. and learned Friend can tell us whether that will happen. Surely there are lines of communication with others in the Government who can answer this; I gave notice some days ago that I intended to ask these questions.
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
My hon. Friend has lines of communication with everyone in our party--that is one of the great strengths of our party--and I advise him to use them. I am unable to take the answers to those questions further.
Mr. Wilshire:
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
No; I wish to get on.
Mr. Wilshire:
I was asked to raise these questions with my right hon. and learned Friend.
1 am
"to be the chairman or leader of the party or otherwise"--
"the most appropriate person".
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