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AYES
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Beggs, Roy
Bendall, Vivian
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Booth, Hartley
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brazier, Julian
Budgen, Nicholas
Butcher, John
Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Dover, Den
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Gale, Roger
Gardiner, Sir George
Gill, Christopher
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Harvey, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hunter, Andrew
Jessel, Toby
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mills, Iain
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Neubert, Sir Michael
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Paisley, The Reverend Ian
Pawsey, James
Porter, David (Waveney)
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Riddick, Graham
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Rowlands, Ted
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Skinner, Dennis
Spearing, Nigel
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Steen, Anthony
Sweeney, Walter
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strgfd)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trimble, David
Twinn, Dr Ian
Walker, A Cecil (Belfast N)
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Wilkinson, John
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Nicholas Winterton and
Mr. Michael Brown.
NOES
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Ashby, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Corston, Jean
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Dafis, Cynog
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Dykes, Hugh
Etherington, Bill
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Faulds, Andrew
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Godman, Dr Norman A
Golding, Mrs Llin
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Henderson, Doug
Hendron, Dr Joe
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hodge, Margaret
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Hutton, John
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Jamieson, David
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n)
Khabra, Piara S
Kirkwood, Archy
Knox, Sir David
Llwyd, Elfyn
McCartney, Ian
McGrady, Eddie
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
Maddock, Diana
Mahon, Alice
Maxton, John
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Miller, Andrew
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Bridget (Lewisham East)
Radice, Giles
Rendel, David
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Sedgemore, Brian
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Tipping, Paddy
Wareing, Robert N
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Worthington, Tony
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. James Wallace and
Mr. Nigel Jones.
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Is it in order to point out that the Secretary of State for Defence and the Secretary of State for Scotland sat through the entire speech of the hon. Member for Chingford(Mr. Duncan Smith), obviously wishing desperately that they could join him in the Lobby?
Madam Speaker: That is not a point of order for me.
DELEGATED LEGISLATION
Madam Speaker: With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to delegated legislation.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation).
Question agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 14A(1)(a) (Consideration of draft deregulation orders),
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Michael Ancram):
I beg to move amendment No. 176, in page 4, line 12, leave out sub-paragraph (3).
This is a technical amendment, which removes a part of the order-making power, which, as it transpires from the drafting of the election order, is no longer necessary. It had been thought that the power to make rules of court in respect of electoral petitions would be transferred from the authority having power to make such rules to the Secretary of State. The power is unnecessary, because the elections order will apply the parliamentary election petition rules with modifications.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East):
I beg to move amendment No. 15, in page 4, line 20, leave out
No. 47, in page 5, line 1, leave out 'one constituency list' and insert 'three constituency lists.'.
No. 18, in page 5, leave out lines 5 and 6.
No. 157, in page 5, line 5, leave out from 'must' to end of line 6 and insert 'not exceed eighteen'.
No. 19, in page 5, leave out lines 9 and 10.
No. 20, in page 6, leave out lines 3 to 12.
No. 12, in page 6, leave out lines 6 and 7 and insert--
No. 21, in page 6, line 14, leave out the words 'or regional'.
No. 22, in page 6, line 22, leave out the words 'or regional'.
No. 23, in page 6, line 32, leave out from 'delegate' to end of line 34.
No. 24, in page 6, leave out lines 35 and 36.
Mr. Robinson:
There are a number of amendments in this group, and several of them are consequential.
There are two principal amendments in the group, and I freely admit that this is very much a belt and braces operation. I am sure that the Government recognise that the thrust of the amendments is an attempt to democratise the electoral process that they have attempted to rig.
The two principal amendments are Nos. 15 and 12. Amendment No. 15 seeks to leave out the words
which is a reference to the regional list that the Secretary of State has attached to the 18 constituency lists where elections would be held.
If, in the view of the Committee, it is not considered appropriate to remove the regional list in its entirety, there is clearly an argument for some scaling within that list. Amendment No. 12 allows some democracy to enter the system. It is not as democratic as some of the other amendments, but given that the purpose of the regional list in the Government's view was to give some weighting to the votes of very small parties, the amendment at least makes a gesture towards the Government's purpose, while at the same time acknowledging the strength of political parties' support in the electorate as a whole.
The process that gave rise to the Government putting forward a regional list commenced when the Prime Minister said on 28 February:
I emphasise those words, because the Prime Minister set Northern Ireland parties a test to establish the most broadly acceptable process.
After a period of consultation, for which the Government called, parties emerged with two principal available options. The political parties did not express the view that there were only two options--that was the Government's view. They issued a discussion paper on8 March, in which they said:
The Government recognised on the foot of consultations arising out of the process they had set up that two main options were open, and only two.
The Ulster Democratic Unionist party, the SDLP and all the small parties, with the exception of the Alliance party, agreed that the party list system was the best way forward. The Ulster Unionist party and the Alliance party favoured the single transferable vote in a multi-member constituency. It was clear from the criteria set down by the Prime Minister that the list system, under which the whole of Northern Ireland would be a single constituency, was the most broadly acceptable, yet the Government were not prepared to accept it.
On 21 March, the Prime Minister said that three different electoral systems had been put forward during the consultation process. That was after his own Government representatives in Northern Ireland had already provided a document that said there were only two. To provide an excuse and a cover so that the Government could change their criteria, they decided that there were three systems.
The Government attempted to magnify the minutiae of the difference between the SDLP version of a list system and my party's version in order to divide and conquer. The Government could quite easily have said that the list system was favoured and was the most broadly acceptable, and that some minor areas needed to be clarified, but they decided not to do so, and instead went for a hybrid system.
The reason why the Government decided on a hybrid system was that, in the background, on 15 March, they had produced another document, which was again to inform and assist parties on the ground rules for substantive all-party negotiations. Paragraph 8 of that document said:
That proposition was manifestly absurd; those who had lost the election and been rejected by the electorate would be able to present themselves in the negotiating process on exactly the same terms as those who had been successful in the elective process. I am not sure what the other political parties' reaction to the Minister of State was, but I know what ours was--that the paragraph was clearly unacceptable.
So a hybrid system was born, with a regional list intended to give an entree to the talks process to those who would have been rejected under any other electoral system. The only way in which the Government could get the unacceptable face of the Unionist community through the door was to provide those people with a free ticket, by allowing the top 10 parties into the talks process with two representatives each from the list.
Of course, the Government had done their calculations beforehand, and determined that the two loyalist parties from the paramilitary fringes would be able to scrape themselves up sufficient votes across the country to qualify as one of the top 10 parties. That was the means by which the Government sought to secure representation at the table for those loyalist paramilitary parties. There was no reason for the regional list other than to provide a ticket for them.
I do not doubt that some in the House will say that it is a good thing that those people should be there. Many of us, even those who do not like the elective system, would say that, if people can obtain a mandate, it is a good thing that they should be there; but if they cannot secure a mandate, they should not be there. It would be rather demeaning for those representatives, or for those of any other political party, to find themselves in the negotiating process having come through as second-class politicians under the proposed system. It would not give them the same credibility as those who can secure a proper mandate.
That the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Modification) Order 1996, which was laid before this House on 21st March, be approved.
That the draft Ombudsman (Northern Ireland) Order 1996, which was laid before this House on 25th March, be approved.
That the draft Commissioner for Complaints (Northern Ireland) Order 1996, which was laid before this House on 25th March, be approved.
That the Farm Waste Grant (Nitrate Vulnerable Zones) (England and Wales) Scheme 1996 (S.I., 1996, No. 908), a copy of which was laid before this House on 25th March, be approved.--[Mr. Streeter.]
That the draft Deregulation (Long Pull) Order 1996, which was laid before this House on 18th March, be approved.--[Mr. Streeter.]
Question agreed to.
'and twenty for Northern Ireland as a whole'.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse):
With this, it will be convenient to discuss also the following amendments: No. 17, in page 5, leave out lines 1 and 2.
(2) Three candidates from the regional list of each of the three parties with the largest aggregates shall be returned as delegates along with two candidates from the regional list of each of the next four parties with the largest aggregates and one candidate from the regional list of each of the next three parties with the largest aggregates.'.
"and twenty for Northern Ireland as a whole",
"The issues still to be settled include, first, the nature of the electoral system to be used in the elective process. There are strong views for and against different systems. Although the decision is for us, the British Government, we first intend to explore and test all the options in discussions with the parties before coming to our decision on what seems most broadly acceptable."--[Official Report, 28 February 1996; Vol. 272, c. 900-1.]
"The two main realistic options appear to be:
(a) STV 18 x 5 Member Constituencies
(b) Party List, Northern Ireland single constituency".
"The two Governments may agree, following consultations with the political parties who have obtained representation at the negotiations, that a political party which has failed to obtain a mandate in the elective process may be offered observer status at the negotiations. Such observer status would involve participation in negotiations subject to the same conditions applying to other political parties".
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