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Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire): We are discussing a Bill that seeks to establish a forum and negotiations in Northern Ireland in order to bring people together and obtain agreement. Hon. Members from different political parties in Northern Ireland, and probably every other hon. Member who has spoken, apart from the Minister, either want certain amendments to be accepted and parties allowed to use the description of their choice, or the problem to be resolved by some other means and to be dealt with on Report.
The Minister must respond favourably either to the amendments or to the suggestion that matters can begin to be resolved on Report, and suggest how that will be done. Otherwise, he is setting the process off down the wrong road entirely and a fantastic dispute will emerge from the measure. There is agreement in the House on the areas that
matter and the Government should respond to the situation. They are supposed to be facilitating agreement on the issue, so that the House can reach a decision.
Miss Hoey:
I rise briefly again because I do not think that the Minister answered the point that I made when I spoke earlier. I do not believe that the principle is about every party on the ballot paper being described in the same way. Surely the principle must be that political parties, particularly the main political parties that are represented here in the House, should have the right to describe themselves on the ballot paper as they wish.
It would be simple for the Minister to accept that all the parties represented here today could say how they wished to be described. If the Democratic Unionist party wants its leader mentioned, that is fine. If the Unionist party does not want its leader mentioned for some reason, that is fine. Surely the principle should be that individual parties represented here, which have already gone through the electoral system, should have that basic right. That is the principle, and the Minister did not reply to my original point.
Mr. Canavan:
The debate would be unnecessary if the Government were to accept amendment No. 94 in my name, which would allow any party to contest the election, in which case we would have no need of the schedule, particularly part II. The Minister is being inconsistent. He said earlier that he was unwilling to accept that the name of the leader of the party together with the name of the party should appear on the ballot paper. Yet that has already been accepted, and not simply in the case of the UK Unionist party and the hon. and learned Member for North Down (Mr. McCartney). Another seven parties are listed in the schedule, which appear to bear the names of individuals. Although they are described as independents, they are listed under the heading of "The Parties".
If the Minister is to be consistent, he should allow each party to decide how it will be described on the ballot paper. If he had accepted my amendment, all this could have been taken care of in the normal nomination procedure, whereby nominations would be invited, as they are at a general or local government election, and the various candidates, or in this case the various parties, would put the teams of candidates forward and the names of the parties and, if they wanted to put the name of the leader of the party on the ballot paper, so be it. It is rather strange and unjust for the Minister to be discriminating against some parties in this way.
The Minister said that my amendment No. 94 was not acceptable to the Government for various reasons which I did not quite comprehend. He said that it is the Government's intention not to proscribe but to get a comprehensive list in order to make the elections as inclusive as possible. If he were to accept my amendment and allow any party to contest the elections, surely that would make the elections far more inclusive than confining them to a list of 30 or so organisations that the Government have decided are parties. Who knows, between now and election day, or what could have been nomination day, other parties or groups of people may wish to contest the elections, but it will be too late to do so.
The Minister also said in justification for rejecting my amendment that the word "party" has no basis in law. That is a poor argument. He can, if he wants, accept my amendment and introduce a consequential amendment defining a party in law if he thinks that that is essential.
The Minister also said that once one goes down the road of the list system, one must go down the road of some form of registration of parties. That is fair enough. I accept that in principle. But there is no need for a statutory recognition of parties. There is no need for a statutory list of parties. Many countries operate a list system in their general and local elections without some form of statutory recognition of parties. That could be taken care of simply by the nomination procedure, whereby parties go along with their groups of candidates and put them down under a description that they choose.
I hope that the Minister will think again about amendment No. 94. If he is unwilling to accept it, he should be consistent and allow all parties to describe themselves as they so wish rather than by the diktat of ministerial decree or parliamentary statute.
Mr. Ancram:
I have listened closely to the representations that have been made. As I said earlier, it was on the understanding that there was a feeling within the House that the SDLP should be allowed to add its letters after its name that I said that I would accept that amendment.
I have to say in all honesty that I cannot at the moment get a feeling for an equivalent degree of consensus in relation to a way forward on the matter that we have just been discussing, so I cannot alter what I said earlier.
However, I am prepared to suggest that between now and Report my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State should consult the leaders of the Northern Ireland parties to see whether an acceptable formula can be arrived at, which can satisfy the concerns that have been expressed. It is certainly my opinion that we currently do not have that consensus.
As I said earlier, however, my intention and that of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State is to create an inclusive process in which people will feel able to participate. It is in that spirit that I offer this consultation. If there is consensus, it obviously could be acted on on Report, with the indulgence of the Chair. I make that offer.
On that basis, I ask hon. Members not to press their amendments, other than those that I have said I shall accept.
Mr. Canavan:
I am still very unhappy about the Minister's response--or, rather, lack of response--to my amendment. I shall certainly not withdraw it, but I do not want to press it to a Division.
Mr. McNamara:
On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. Did not the Minister invite hon. Members who tabled amendments to say before the vote what their responses would be to the offer that he has just made?
The First Deputy Chairman:
Order. The Question has been put and negatived.
Rev. Ian Paisley:
On a point of order, Mr. Lofthouse. I understood the Minister to say that hon. Members could withdraw their amendments now, that the Secretary of State would consult the leaders of the Northern Ireland parties, and that on Report there might be some provision to finalise the dispute that has arisen among us today. I am certainly prepared to withdraw the amendment in my name on those grounds.
The First Deputy Chairman:
Order. We shall come to the amendment mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. He will then have the opportunity to withdraw it, or otherwise.
Amendment made: No. 47, in page 5, line 1, leave out 'one constituency list' and insert 'three constituency lists.'.--[Mr. Trimble.]
Mr. Robert McCartney:
I beg to move amendment No. 143, in page 5, line 3, leave out 'at least two and'.
The First Deputy Chairman:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss also amendment No. 156, in page 5, line 3, leave out
Mr. McCartney:
In general terms, schedule 1 provides that parties will have to field not fewer than two and not more than five candidates to stand in the constituency section of the proposed election. I am conscious of the fact that the Minister said that he was sensitive to the difficulties that face minor or smaller parties in fielding candidates and in complying with the exigencies of an election campaign.
The purpose of amendment No. 143 is to amend the clause so that parties may field not more than five candidates, which would give them the option of fielding not two candidates but one. It would therefore only be necessary for the smaller parties in the 18 constituencies to find 18 candidates, plus an additional eight candidates for the Provincewide section, which involves another 20 seats.
I think it is important that the smaller parties should be helped to field at least one candidate in every constituency because that would provide them with an opportunity to increase their Provincewide vote, thus qualifying for a place in the top 10 parties. Under the legislation, that would give them an additional two seats.
There seems to be no very good reason why the question of the number of candidates, up to the maximum that can be fielded, should not lie in the purview of the parties fielding candidates. Why should there be an obligation on those parties to field two candidates rather than one, particularly as amendment No. 47--which the Government have accepted--means that there is already an obligation on the smaller parties to field candidates in at least three constituencies as an endorsement of their good faith and seriousness of intent?
In those circumstances, I suggest that it should be made easier for parties that are serious and want to raise their Provincewide vote to a level that would permit them to
obtain an additional two seats. Such parties should be offered the facility of qualifying by fielding one candidate in each of the 18 constituencies.
It may be suggested--in some metaphysical manner--that if one is fielding only one candidate, one is not providing a list. That does not answer the issue at all, because one is providing a candidate, who will be one of a number of candidates on a very large list on which the electorate will be able to make their choice. Conversely, by compelling the smaller parties to field 36 candidates instead of 18, one is limiting that party in its appeal to the widest possible spectrum of electors.
There may, for example, be only 200 or 500 voters in a constituency that wished to cast their votes for the United Kingdom Unionist party--Robert McCartney. Provided that my party is willing to field at least one candidate in that constituency, is there any reason why those 200, 300 or more people should be denied an opportunity to vote for it?
'and not more than five'.
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