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Mr. Rowe: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. When he says that couples agree that their marriage cannot be saved, that is exactly what happens, but I suspect that, in many cases, they mean that they have no idea how to set about saving it. That goes back to what the hon. Member for Motherwell, South (Dr. Bray) said
about the paramount importance of finding ways in which acceptable forms of assistance can be found at an earlier stage.
Mr. Llwyd: I agree entirely with that view. It is of the utmost importance. I made the point on Second Reading that we should concentrate on assisting in particular young people going into marriage because the divorce rate among teenagers is horrendously high. They should be counselled into understanding the full obligations that they are entering into in the contract of marriage. The earlier we realise that and get something done, the better it will be all round. Incidentally, that might be a reason why divorce rates have shot up so much in the United Kingdom: we are simply not concentrating on the lead-up to divorce, so I agree with the hon. Gentleman on that.
Mr. Devlin: The hon. Gentleman put his finger on a glaring omission in the legislation. It is called the Family Law Bill, but it deals chiefly with divorce. It should deal also with the circumstances in which marriages are made. I would like couples to go through a much more elaborate procedure, perhaps with counselling or arrangements before people get married. Like him, I have met teenagers of 19 who have been divorced after one or two years.
Mr. Llwyd: That is also a useful and valid contribution.
There is no doubt that the law has made it difficult for a small proportion of estranged couples to get divorced. It does so in an arbitrary way, depending on which facts might be proved. As the Law Commission has clearly stated, the present law can make things far worse for the children. Having parents semi-publicly calling each other all manner of things in affidavits and court documents is not the best backcloth for rearing any child. Despite having a thick-skinned constitution, I have frequently been embarrassed in divorce courts and seen the agony in the eyes of young children when mother and father call each other names across the court and say things that would be best left unsaid. The new framework, if it is to pass into law, will do away with much of that heartache and pointless name-calling.
Mrs. Peacock:
I understand what the hon. Gentleman says about children having to listen to such awful things in court and sometimes outside, but does he really believe that those children will benefit from having either father or mother missing all the time? Has he not ever heard the sobs of a child whose father is not there any more? Is that any worse than listening to parents arguing, certainly in those early stages?
Mr. Llwyd:
I hear what the hon. Lady says and I understand her point, but I go back to what I said earlier. If father has decided that the marriage has broken down and cannot live with mother, it is not ideal in any circumstance, because their child will be brought up amid constant bickering, with one parent--perhaps two--who is desperately unhappy with the position. Frankly, the sooner that is put an end to, the better, although I understand the hon. Lady's question and motives and I appreciate what she says. From my experience, however, I cannot agree with her.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield):
Having known the hon. Gentleman for some time, I appreciate
Mr. Llwyd:
The hon. Gentleman makes a strong argument, but I return to the point raised earlier. If we are to prepare people for marriage, that is undoubtedly a question that they will ask. I do not know what the future holds, but I do know from my experience of divorce law that too many teenagers marry without any thought and suddenly find that they are not matched to their partner at all. They do not understand the obligations involved. I honestly do not know the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question. Perhaps at some point someone else can respond. Clearly neither of us can predict what will happen, but he made his point with much force and I understand it.
5.15 pm
It behoves us to regard children's interests as paramount. Their welfare is the main issue in all this. The Law Commission states:
That is true and I have seen it in practice over the years.
I shall not quote at length, because I know many hon. Members wish to speak, but the Law Commission makes one or two other important points. It states:
It goes on to suggest various points and reaches the conclusion that a no-fault concept should be proposed. That is correct, based on good sense and a useful contribution to family law.
The simple fact is that divorces are about mud-slinging. To my utter regret, some of that mud sometimes splashes on to the innocent children. They are the parties we should be thinking of. Why should private arguments about personal things be made public in that way, especially as it serves no useful purpose? If I may make the obvious point, divorce, however "amicable", is always a calamity. It is an anxious time for everyone. Why should we, as legislators, make it worse? If a marriage cannot be saved, our duty surely is to ease the way from the point of realisation of the irretrievable breakdown of the marriage to the decree absolute. That is common good sense. It is in the interests of both parties and in the children's interests, which is important.
May I draw a brief analogy? When I was a law student, during lectures on the law of tort, we were told about the New Zealand no-fault system in relation to car accidents,
which was hailed as a great step forward. In much the same way as the proponents of the fault principle are arguing today, people in favour of retaining the negligence aspect of the law argued that there would be more so-called accidents, bogus claims and a rash of litigation. That was never borne out. I cannot for the life of me see how the no-fault system here will lead to more divorces.
With respect, the proponent of the amendment is a considerable Euro-sceptic. He did, however, travel the whole world to look for evidence to support his argument. I leave that without further comment.
Some opponents have suggested that there will be a drastic increase in the number of divorces. I honestly do not believe that. May I put it differently? If I did believe it, I would not oppose the amendments, and I do not think that other hon. Members would either.
I do not think that amending the law to do away with the concept of fault will increase the divorce rate. I think that it will ease the way towards so-called amicable divorce for small family units, making divorce less painful for the parties concerned and for their children. That is what a family law Bill should be about.
Dame Angela Rumbold:
Thank you for calling me so early, Mr. Morris.
I greatly enjoyed the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls). I agreed with all of it except the end: I did not agree with his conclusions. Like him, I had considerable doubts about the way in which the Bill arrived in the House; I also had considerable doubts about the politics involved--politics with a large or a small "p". I was worried about the fact that a Conservative Administration wanted to introduce such legislation. That is all in the past, however: we are now considering amendments.
My hon. Friend spoke of the awfulness of marriage breakdown and divorce. I do not want to increase the difficulties involved in a very bad marriage and the irretrievable breakdown of a relationship; I do not want to make it harder for people who have lived in difficult and upsetting conditions for years to extricate themselves. For obvious reasons, I do not think that hon. Members should pontificate about how important it is for people to struggle on simply for the sake of the institution of marriage.
I am not a divorce lawyer. I am simply an ordinary woman--a Member of Parliament, a mother and a woman who has been happily married for some 38 years. They have been very good years. I have also worked with children. One aspect of the Bill worries me enormously: we are saying that people must be able to extricate themselves from difficult marriages, and that fault in itself is not a good reason for them to be able to do so, but non-lawyers outside this place will not see the Bill in that light. People will say, "That is fine. We need not do anything except say that the contract into which we entered no longer need exist or bind us."
"The present system can also make things worse for the children. The children themselves would usually prefer their parents to stay together. But the law cannot force parents to live amicably or prevent them from separating. It is not known whether children suffer more from their parents' separation or from living in a household in conflict where they may be blamed for the couple's inability to part. It is probably impossible to generalise, as there are so many variables which may affect the outcome, including the age and personality of the particular child. But it is known that the children who suffer least from their parents' break-up are usually those who are able to retain a good relationship with them both. Children who suffer most are those whose parents remain in conflict."
"the present law can, for all the reasons given earlier, make the conflict worse. It encourages couples to find fault with one another and disputes about children seem to be more common in divorces based on intolerable behaviour than in others."
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