| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Soley: I am sorry to have missed the opening of the debate, but I was chairing the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. I regard this subject as very important, because I have spent much of my working life working with families who have been in trouble for one reason or another, frequently because relationships have broken down. I am very much in favour of arbitration and conciliation, and that is why I support the general thrust of the Bill. I am not, however, generally in favour of extending the length of time before it is possible to get a divorce.
I am not as worried about amendment No. 3 as I was about amendment No. 1, because I believe that bringing fault into divorce immediately puts children in the firing line of the battle. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng) made that point powerfully and I am pleased that the amendment was thrown out. However, there are a number of contradictions here. If it is the view of the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims) that we should make it more difficult for couples to separate, and tell people who are about to marry not to marry without a lot of thought, because, if they do they cannot undo it easily, that is a reasonable position and I understand it, but that course is likely to increase the number of people who choose to live together outside marriage.
I do not mind that--there is something to be said for people living together outside marriage to see whether their relationship works before they make a longer-term commitment by having children. For me, the crucial issue is the welfare of the children, and we should never lose sight of that factor. I would not mind an increase in the number of people living together, but I suspect that the hon. Gentleman might not want that to happen.
I have been struck by the number of times that states or Governments--of the left and right--that have tried to intervene to dictate social relationships between people, have nearly always failed to achieve their aim. People make relationships because of the quality of those relationships. If a relationship does not work, those involved will separate. The problem that we have to face is that, if children are involved in a relationship that does not work, it is very painful for them. The ending of a close relationship is also painful for adults, but it is the children on whom we must focus and for whom we should have most concern.
That brings me to another point, which was mentioned at the end of the previous debate and which the hon. Member for Chislehurst mentioned. We make a fundamental mistake if we assume that a marriage is the same as a family. It is not. Families predate marriage by thousands of years. Marriage is a relatively recent innovation. That does not mean that I am against marriage. If people wish to marry, it is important that the state, the Church or any other organisation involved makes the experience positive and pleasant for them. If people wish to marry, the experience should be an
important one for which they make preparation. If the Churches are worried about the divorce rate, they should provide more preparation.
If people do not want to marry, the state should not moralise, find fault or blame. Many people--of whom I am one--live outside marriage. I can tell hon. Members that my children are perfectly happy, they are quite well brought up and we are perfectly happy as a family and as individuals. Many of my constituents, and many other people in the country, live in exactly the same sort of relationship. I would not seek to impose on people who are married a moral code for the structure of their relationship and I ask only that they do not seek to impose on me a structure that I am not willing to accept.
Dame Jill Knight (Birmingham, Edgbaston):
I am trying to follow the hon. Gentleman's line of argument. He said at the beginning of his speech that, if the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims) were adopted, it would put people off getting married and they would live together. If I understand the hon. Gentleman correctly, he has just said that he sees nothing wrong with a decision to live together outside marriage. The hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing from both sides at the same time. Will he clarify his argument a little?
Mr. Soley:
I am saying that, when the state, through Parliament in this instance, tries to legislate on these matters, there are many unintended consequences. If we make it difficult for divorce to take place, people will vote with their feet. They are likely--I put it no higher than that--to do one of two things. The first is that they will choose to live with a partner outside marriage rather than marry first. I do not mind if that happens, but I gather that some people do.
The second is that, when a marriage breaks up and it is necessary for the partners to wait a long time for a divorce--let us assume that there is no doubt that the marriage has ended and neither party is looking for reconciliation--one or both will enter into another relationship and live with that person. That is a common background. If we make people wait three, four or five years for a divorce, more people will live in sin, if that is the phrase that people choose to use.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman:
The hon. Gentleman has said twice that, if it is made difficult to get a divorce, people will be less inclined to marry. That is not true. Until the second half of the century, it was extremely difficult to get divorced. In the previous century, it was necessary to secure one's own Act of Parliament, for heaven's sake. That did not put people off getting married. Only recently has divorce been made easier; before that happened, people married willingly.
Mr. Soley:
The hon. Lady is right. If she listens, she will hear what I have to say about the matters that she has raised. I merely say that those who support the amendment should understand that there will be
The problem is that marriage has come to be seen as a passport to happiness. It is assumed that getting married is a good thing--"You will be happy, you can have children and you will be a good parent." Those things do not follow automatically. There is evidence that many young people--I think that I will take hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber with me in this instance--have seen marriage as something of a celebration, almost to the point of its being a party, without necessarily thinking through the longer-term consequences of having children and living together.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow):
One of my hon. Friend's most telling observations is that many people enter marriage ill prepared. Surely the task is to make the preparation for this most intimate of relationships much more effective. That involves many voluntary organisations, such as Churches, apart from the state.
Mr. Soley:
That is absolutely right. I shall say something about the registering of children, which we tend to ignore. As I have said, my hon. Friend is right.
Not so long ago, one of my constituents telephoned to complain bitterly that the vicar would not marry her. Hon. Members do not often receive such calls. In any event, I intervened to find out why the vicar was not prepared to marry the lady. He said, "She does not understand that it is not just an excuse for a party." He wanted to make preparation available and she was saying, "I want a party. I have been brought up to believe that getting married is a good thing to do. I will be happy and have children." Someone like me was saying, "Marriage does not equal happiness. Similarly, it does not equal being a good parent. It is much more complex than that." We should be focusing on that.
Divorce rates are high and, in my judgment, they will remain so, primarily for economic reasons. There are, of course, other factors. People are living longer and children become independent. People are divorced at different stages and at different ages nowadays.
In my parents' generation, parents stayed together in loveless marriages. They were bitterly unhappy. It was tragic watching people of my parents' generation locked together in loveless, unhappy marriages. They felt that, because the state had said that they should not get divorced, they had to continue living in that way. I saw many sad elderly people who missed so much in life after their children left home. The same was true of people who did not have children. They, too, were locked into loveless, unhappy marriages. We have no right to impose that sort of life on people through a social code that does not fit with the experience of real life.
If the Government wanted to do something about reducing the divorce rate, they would have to change the role of women. They would have to make women much more dependent on men's earnings once more, so that it would be difficult for them to leave. That will not happen. In a strange way, there is an element of reversal.
Men, especially in some of the old heavy industry areas, are now much more dependent on women than hitherto. They are not especially useful as parents, because they were brought up in the macho culture of building ships or digging coal, for example. They suddenly find that they have no role in life because they have no job. They have had no preparation for parenthood, so what use are they to a woman? It is a real problem. It is why we find a fairly high number of single-parent women living in some of the old heavy industry areas. That is also why, in south Wales--many of us would not have believed this some years ago--close to 50 per cent. of the main carers of children at home are men. A fundamental and radical change has taken place in other parts of the country as well.
Before coming to this place, I was a probation officer. I worked with damaged and, at times, extremely violent families. I worked also with families that came to see me because the divorce court or the family court had asked that that should happen. Three things can be done when a family or a marriage is in difficulty. I say "marriage" advisedly, but I am talking about two people living together in that situation.
First, I could say, "You can stay as you are and not do anything about the situation, in which case I can guarantee that you will probably continue to be unhappy together." Secondly, I could say, "You can separate. If you choose to do that you should separate in the least painful way for you and to the children if any are involved." Thirdly, I could say, "You can attempt reconciliation or conciliation." The third option is an important one and it is one that the Bill takes on board, which is why I welcome the relevant part of it.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |