House of Commons
Friday 26 April 1996
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker in the Chair]
Offensive Weapons Bill
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
9.34 am
Mr. David Nicholson (Taunton): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I believe that you have been briefed about the reason for the withdrawal of my new clause 1, which was tabled some time ago, and the tabling last night of new clause 2, which is starred. The Public Bill Office found an error in line 9 of the new clause--it was my fault or that of those who drafted it for me--where the word "Act" was used instead of "section".
I understand that the Public Bill Office discovered the error only yesterday morning, although it has had the new clause since before the Committee stage. I learnt about the error last night at 7 o'clock through a conversation with my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland), and we attempted to put right the mistake by withdrawing new clause 1 and tabling new clause 2. I believe that the late discovery of the error was due to the bereavement of a staff member in the Public Bill Office. In those circumstances, Madam Speaker, I hope that you will select new clause 2 for consideration this morning.
Madam Speaker:
I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman. I have considered carefully whether I should make an exception and allow starred new clause 2 to be called in the circumstances that he has explained. However, I am not prepared to allow the Bill's proceedings to begin with consideration of a new text that hon. Members have not seen before this morning. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman might consider discussing the matter with a colleague in the other place.
Mr. David Nicholson:
I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 10, at end insert--
I shall be brief, as I had intended to speak mainly about my new clause. The amendment seeks to ensure that the legislation relating to flick knives--the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959--should carry powers of arrest similar to those proposed for offensive weapons in the Bill. I hope that I have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) in extending the Offensive Weapons Bill to include flick
knives. They are clearly a major threat to personal safety, so it is desirable that they be included within the scope of the Bill.
Mr. Tim Smith (Beaconsfield):
I do not have section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 before me, so I ask my hon. Friend to explain what he has in mind. Is not the matter covered by paragraph (l), which refers to an
Does that not include flick knives?
Mr. Nicholson:
The drafting of the Bill is principally a matter for my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam. This is a belt-and-braces effort to ensure that flick knives are included in the Bill. I made a copy of the relevant section from the 1959 Act.
Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for hon. Members to filibuster without having got their act together? It is clear that, as usual, an attempt is being made to avoid debating important measures that could come before the House later. Conservative Members do not seem to have got their filibuster or papers together.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris):
It is clear that a great deal of research material on the subject is available, and presumably the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) was trying to find the relevant document.
Mr. Nicholson:
I had no intention of filibustering, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I intended to sit down, having made my point. I cannot explain why a reference to flick knives is not in the Bill, but I have the text of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959. Section 1 states:
Therefore, I want the Bill to refer to such weapons.
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale):
My understanding is that the Bill's purpose is to ensure that police officers are given the power of search and arrest in a public place. The 1959 Act proscribes flick knives and gravity knives. Most of us are of an age that we can recall that in the 1950s, such weapons were a scourge on our streets. The Criminal Justice Act 1988 included a long list of other items that I can only think are used to cause injury, such as knuckledusters, hand claws, belt buckle knives and push daggers. The 1988 Act extended the 1959 legislation to include all those items.
Section 142 of the 1988 Act allowed magistrates to issue warrants authorising police constables to enter and search premises for flick knives or gravity knives, or for weapons set out in the order made under section 141. If the House accepts the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson), as it should, will that put beyond any dispute the ability of a police officer to arrest in the street someone whom he finds in possession of one of the weapons in question? It may be, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith) said, that the weapons would be caught in the generality of the measure.
Mr. Tim Smith:
My hon. Friend said that the Criminal Justice Act 1988 extended the 1959 legislation. If so, and if a flick knife is an
as I believe it is, I cannot see the need for the amendment.
Mr. Greenway:
The 1988 Act, in extending the 1959 legislation, included a long list of other items that do not necessarily have a blade or point, such as
and
On the face of it, such weapons would not be caught by the general description of an
Sir Michael Shersby (Uxbridge):
My hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) has initiated and advocated an important point, ably supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway). Clause 1 refers to arrest without warrant for carrying offensive weapons, and in speaking to it I must declare that I am the parliamentary adviser to the Police Federation of England and Wales.
Amendment No. 1 would make it clear without doubt that the legislation relating to flick knives will carry a similar power of arrest as proposed in respect of other offensive weapons in the Bill. That sensible provision would be widely welcomed by police forces throughout the country. The amendment does not require lengthy consideration, but it is evident that flick or gravity knives present a problem, and the Bill addresses the dangerous knife culture that has developed in this country. I hope that the House will be disposed to support my hon. Friend's amendment.
Lady Olga Maitland (Sutton and Cheam):
I reject amendment No. 1, but not with any great enthusiasm.
Such weapons are invariably smuggled into this country, largely from France--where they are legally obtained over the counter. Even if a seller of such weapons is caught in this country, which I regret is rare, the offence does not qualify for the emergency action of immediate arrest and interview at the police station. Selling is a static activity. It causes no immediate harm, so the offence of selling such weapons is dealt with by a summons. The vendor is easily traceable by virtue of his premises.
The danger comes when a weapon is in the hands of the purchaser and from what he might do when he goes out of the shop into the street. If he is then found carrying a flick knife or gravity knife, which are banned under the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959, he can be arrested on the spot. In any case, there is a flaw in the drafting, in that my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton has limited the scope to gravity knives and flick knives. Why did he not include butterfly knives and the rest of the 14 weapons already banned under section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988?
The amendment would extend the power of summary arrest to the offence under section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959, which makes it an offence to import, manufacture or sell a flick knife or gravity knife. Most of us have a rough understanding of what a flick knife is--a knife or blade that opens automatically when a button is pushed. A gravity knife is similar, except that the blade is released by the force of gravity and what the 1959 Act describes as the "application of centrifugal force". The offence under section 1 of the 1959 Act is not in the same category as that of carrying an offensive weapon or knife.
'( ) an offence under section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959;'.
"offence of having article with blade or point in public place"?
"Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale on hire or exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person--
(a) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes known as a 'flick knife' or 'flick gun'; or
(b) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring lever, or other device, sometimes known as a 'gravity knife',
shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction . . . to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both such imprisonment and fine."
"article with blade or point",
"the weapon sometimes known as a 'telescopic truncheon', being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device"
"the weapon sometimes known as a 'blowpipe' or 'blow gun'."
"article with blade or point".
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