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Lady Olga Maitland: I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 3, line 15, at end insert--
'(7) In the application of this section to Northern Ireland--
(a) the reference in subsection (2) above to section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 is to be construed as a reference to Article 22 of the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987; and
(b) the reference in subsection (6) above to section 14(5) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 is to be construed as a reference to Article 2(2) of the Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986.'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 5, in page 3, line 32, at end insert--
'(4) In the application of this section to Northern Ireland the reference in subsection (1)(b) above to section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 is to be construed as a reference to Article 22 of the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987.'.
No. 6, in page 3, line 32, at end insert--
No. 9, in page 4, line 44, leave out 'and' and insert 'to'.
No. 10, in clause 7, page 5, line 39, leave out 'and 3' and insert
Lady Olga Maitland:
These amendments fulfil a commitment given by the Minister during the Committee stage on 6 March. He informed the Committee of the intention, which I fully share, to extend to Northern Ireland the new offence of having an article with a blade or point on school premises. That is the effect of the amendment.
The amendment would add subsection (7) to new section 139A--the offence of having a article with blade or point on school premises--of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, to provide the relevant adaptions in application of the new section to Northern Ireland. Thus, any reference to section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953--which refers to the prohibition of the carrying of offensive weapons without lawful authority or reasonable excuse--will be construed as a reference to the equivalent offence in the law of Northern Ireland. That is found in article 22 of the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987, which refers to the carrying of offensive weapons in a public place. A similar amendment is made in new section bI of the 1988 Act.
Provision is made for references to section 14(5) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 to be construed as references to article 2(2) of the Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986, which contains the definition of a "school" in Northern Ireland. A new clause 4(1A) is inserted to amend the extent section of the 1988 Act to apply to the new sections 139A and 139B to Northern Ireland, and a consequential amendment is made to clause 4(3) as a result.
The amendment fulfils a commitment that my hon. Friend the Minister made in Committee, and I am therefore only too glad to table it on Report. I hope that it will be supported by my hon. Friends.
Mr. Michael:
I am happy to confirm the Opposition's support for the amendments. As the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam said, it introduces an element of consistency by extending the application of the Bill to Northern Ireland, which is to be welcomed. I am glad that she and the Minister have been able to fulfil the undertaking that was given in Committee.
Mr. Kirkhope:
As my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam has said, the amendment fulfils a commitment that I made in Committee. I therefore naturally support it, and welcome the support of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael).
Amendment agreed to.
Lady Olga Maitland:
I beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 3, line 27, after 'article', insert 'or weapon'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss also the following amendments: No. 4, in page 3, line 28, after 'article', insert 'or weapon'.
No. 7, in page 4, line 38, after 'article', insert 'or weapon'.
No. 8, in page 4, line 39, after 'article', insert 'or weapon'.
Lady Olga Maitland:
This is another somewhat technical amendment, but important to the overall purpose of the Bill. Its intention is to clear up a small and entirely unintended ambiguity in relation to police powers of seizure of knives and offensive weapons on school premises. It is proposed in clause 4 to extend the offences of carrying a knife or offensive weapon in public to school premises. Those two separate offences are referred to in the proposed new section 139A, subsections (1) and (2), of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 in relation to England and Wales. The equivalent Scottish offences are referred to in the proposed new section 49A, subsections (1) and (2), of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995.
The problem arises in relation to the associated police power of seizure of a knife or an offensive weapon if an officer discovers such a thing in the course of a search on school premises. The proposed powers of seizure are referred to in subsection (2) of the proposed new section 139B for England and Wales, and subsection (2) of the proposed new section 49B for Scotland. Both provide that a constable may seize an article--I emphasise the word "article"--of a kind described in subsection (1). That may conceivably be taken as omitting the power to seize offensive weapons. The amendment merely rectifies that.
Mr. Michael:
The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam has given a technical explanation of the need for the amendment, but not one that is easily understood by a lay person. Surely the word "article" includes weapons, especially when one considers the context of the Bill and other legislation under consideration. As the Minister is to comment, perhaps he will deal with that point.
Mr. Kirkhope:
One of the problems is that the amendment is essentially technical. I fully understand that the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth is saying that without the amendment problems may not be caused--but problems could be caused. As the matter is currently framed, it is possible to construe the clause as proposing a police power of seizure for knives, but not for offensive weapons. I am advised that the amendment must be technical.
Mr. Michael:
I am not trying to delay the Minister; I am simply trying to understand what is being said. If offensive weapons other than knives are not included,
Mr. Kirkhope:
I cannot really do that because the term "offensive weapons" covers a large range of items. The word "article" does not help us. We believe that the word "article" does include weapons, but we still think that there is a possibility of doubt in legal argument; that is why we are trying to remove the ambiguity. In talking of offensive weapons, a sharpened screwdriver comes to mind, for instance. Nevertheless, the amendment has to be technical. It is important that in such an important measure we should remove any possibility of misunderstanding or ambiguity, and any opportunity for the extension of legal argument and of justice not being done. The amendment is very sensible and, uncontentious and would clarify matters.
Mr. Michael:
The Minister's illustration is very helpful. Am I correct in thinking that he is saying that the wording is basically to act as belt and braces, and that it does not change what was intended by the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam or those who were originally involved in drafting the Bill or what we understood that we were doing in Committee, and that it is merely to ensure that there is no doubt?
Mr. Kirkhope:
I can confirm that. While the hon. Gentleman and I may think that it is perfectly reasonable to interpret the matter in a certain way, lawyers might use the opportunity in certain circumstances to misunderstand the wording unless it is absolutely crystal clear. That is the reason for the amendment, which we support.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments made: No. 4, in page 3, line 28, after 'article', insert 'or weapon'.
'(1A) In section 172 of that Act (extent), in subsection (3), for "section 139" there is substituted "sections 139 to bE".'.
', 3 and 4(1), (1A) and (3)'.
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