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'(1A) In section 172 of that Act (extent), in subsection (3), for "section 139" there is substituted "sections 139 to 139B".'
No. 7, in page 4, line 38, after 'article', insert 'or weapon'.
No. 8, in page 4, line 39, after 'article', insert 'or weapon'.
No. 9, in page 4, line 44, leave out 'and' and insert 'to'.--[Lady Olga Maitland.]
Mr. Michael:
I beg to move amendment No. 22, in page 5, line 7, after 'applies', insert
The Bill deserves two cheers and it will earn a full three cheers if the amendment is accepted. The amendment is intended to take a grip on the incitement and advertising that have helped to encourage the knife culture, which we all abhor. This point was discussed on Second Reading, and I believe that the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam was sympathetic to my argument then.
To explain my reference to three cheers, from the beginning, Labour has supported the Bill, which will take a grip on the carrying of knives. A second cheer went up when the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam and the Minister accepted the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), the shadow Home Secretary, that we should ban the sale of knives to young people under the age of 16. However, we need to go beyond those measures, to take a grip on the knife culture in general, and in particular on those who profit from encouraging impressionable young people to take an unhealthy interest in offensive weapons. That is why we need a ban on the advertising of such weapons. I shall spell out the problem briefly.
On Second Reading, there was agreement on both sides that we needed to control the advertising of guns and weapons generally. Today, the amendment is designed to deal specifically with advertisements that encourage the knife culture. I raised the question of advertising and the mail order of weapons as long ago as the debates on the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, to which I proposed amendments, so it is not an issue that has suddenly come out of the blue.
Last year, the shadow Home Secretary brought to the attention of the Advertising Standards Authority some advertisements that included other weapons such as guns, but which also specifically included quite horrific weapons with titles such as "Rambo shortsword" and "SAS shoulder holster knife".
In response to the approach by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, Lord Rodgers, the chairman of the Advertising Standards Authority, stated specifically that the authority had no powers to ban such advertising. Therefore, since as long ago as the period before Second Reading, Ministers have known that legislation is the only way in which to ban such advertisements and it is disappointing that we have not yet got that point covered in law.
We cannot deal with the whole issue of the advertising of weapons and guns in the Bill, but we can agree to an amendment that would ban advertisements that are specific to the knife culture. I am sure that all hon. Members agree that such weapons can have no legitimate use; there can be no legitimate reason for wandering the streets with something called an "SAS shoulder holster knife" or a "Rambo shortsword".
Mr. Merchant:
The hon. Gentleman will remember that we exchanged words on this subject in Committee; we may not have been talking on quite the same subject then. Will he confirm--I have great sympathy for his objective--that it is possible under existing ASA arrangements and the Committee of Advertising Practice codes to prevent advertisements that
or are "emotive or aggressive"? That would catch many of the advertisements to which he refers.
Mr. Michael:
No, it would not. The code would have an effect on those who observe the code of conduct.
The ASA confirmed, after my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn referred to it the advertisements I mentioned, that it was not considered appropriate to take action on them. It referred them to a working party, and that working party may come up with new words or may strengthen the code of conduct, but that will not control the type of advertisements and virtual incitement that I am talking about.
As I said, we raised the issue on Second Reading, when it was made clear that the ASA was not able to ban advertisements that encouraged people to purchase weapons for the purpose of violence. I make it clear that we are not talking about advertisements in relation to country sports and things of that sort. We are talking about the wording to which I have referred, which is clearly not about sporting or legitimate activities.
On Second Reading and in Committee, I quoted a letter from the ASA in reply to our initial approach to it. The letter states:
That sentence from the ASA goes to the heart of the question raised by the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant). It is clear from the authority itself that it does not have the power to do what the House wants, and that is why an amendment is needed to achieve the desired result. I should perhaps make it clear that that statement was authoritative, because it came from Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, who is chairman of the ASA.
Mr. Merchant:
I do not want to labour the point, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman entirely appreciates how the ASA works in practice. I was very involved in the advertising industry and had experience of the ASA. The ASA's latest publication, which deals with its research on this subject, says that companies whose advertising is found to be unacceptable or questionable will be asked to make any necessary amendments. I appreciate that that does not have the force of law, but does the hon. Gentleman not accept that in practice, the ASA's authority is extremely strong in the advertising industry? In 99 per cent. of cases, what it decides to do will be followed by the industry.
Mr. Michael:
The hon. Gentleman destroys his own case by the words that he quotes. The ASA says that companies "will be asked" to change their advertising. In view of the wording used in advertisements to which I have referred and the motivation of people who would be willing to put such advertisements in public periodicals, I do not believe that such people will respond to being asked rather nicely to amend the wording that they use. That is simply not good enough.
If the hon. Gentleman's own words are not sufficient to destroy his case, I quote again the very specific and authoritative statement by the chairman of the ASA. He says:
That is absolutely clear and specific.
Sir Michael Shersby:
I am very sympathetic to the hon. Gentleman's line of argument. Does he agree that many of the advertisements for these horrible knives appear in fringe magazines of one kind and another, which probably never even cross the doorstep of the Advertising Standards Authority, but which are circulated to groups of people whom the advertisers believe will buy the product?
Mr. Michael:
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. In a conversation that I had with members of the Advertising Standards Authority, they commented on the vast amount of advertising there is and said that it was totally impossible to monitor all of it. It is impossible for them to monitor all mainstream advertising, never mind the fringe periodicals to which the hon. Gentleman refers. He is precisely right.
There are vulnerable people who can easily be encouraged in the culture of violence and the knife culture, which give rise to such concern. We are talking about a fringe activity, not about an activity involving masses of people. However, it is those who are vulnerable in some ways and who can become dangerous in other ways if their predilections are encouraged who are the target of fringe advertising. That advertising is my target in the amendment. The hon. Members for Uxbridge (Sir M. Shersby) and for Sutton and Cheam are, I believe, sympathetic to that point.
If we were talking about advertisements that appear in major, large-circulation periodicals, there would be no great difficulty, because the pressure of the ASA would discourage them from continuing to accept such advertisements. However, the hon. Member for Uxbridge is absolutely right to say that that is not the target of the amendment. But without the amendment, as Lord Rodgers made clear, the target that we have in mind cannot be tackled by the ASA.
'or who encourages or incites the purchase of an article to which this section applies by or on behalf of a person under the age of sixteen, or who advertises such an article for sale in a way which appears to incite or condone the possession of such an article for violent purposes,'.
"appeal to the immature or unstable mind"
"It is important to be clear that the Advertising Standards Authority is not in a position to ban such advertisements."
"It is important to be clear that the Advertising Standards Authority is not in a position to ban such advertisements."
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