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8.30 pm
I want to mention two problems to my hon. Friend the Minister. I am not saying that there are easy solutions, but I hope that something can be done. I think that the majority of the public in Southend-on-Sea are sickened by those two problems. First, it is abundantly clear that individuals with problems are being dumped on Southend, simply because some authorities do not have HMOs, do not want them and do not want them to be encouraged. Southend contains many large properties that would be suitable for conversion to HMOs. It is a real problem; authorities are passing their social problems to us.
I have heard that Labour authorities, and even a Conservative authority not far from here, thought that they could solve their problems by dumping them elsewhere. I am sure that the Government disapprove of such action, whether it is taken by a Labour or a Conservative authority. I hope that they will realise that the problem has a serious impact on areas such as Westcliff-on-Sea, and the Milton ward in particular. Do they believe that local authorities--all of which must deal with individuals with special needs--will have an obligation to provide accommodation for those people? Unfortunately, two boroughs in particular that have no HMOs, or an inadequate number, cannot provide accommodation there. It can only be provided in Southend, and that is unfair to us.
The second point that I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will bear in mind is this. Some areas, whether or not there is dumping, are attractive to people looking for
HMO accommodation, because they contain many large houses that are suitable for conversion. Southend suffers from that a great deal, as do other seaside resorts. I hope that, in the allocation of funds, the Government will remember that some areas have special problems. Southend is certainly one of them.
If we talk too much about special problems, we are in danger of giving the impression that the place concerned should be avoided. I have lived in Southend for many years, and it is a delightful borough, but we have specific problems in certain areas, and something needs to be done.
Irrespective of what we do tonight, I hope that the House will not give the impression that there is an easy solution. It appears to me that there are more people looking for such accommodation now than there have ever been in the past, for all sorts of reasons. Some may stem from unemployment, some from family break-up and some from the consequences of such break-up; others relate to the personal problems of individuals. Moreover, many of the authorities involved have not applied even for the basic rights that they could have under the existing licensing scheme. I hope that the Government will take firm action, on an urgent basis, to convey to authorities that new, strong powers exist to help proper management of their affairs, and also that they have an obligation to act.
Why on earth do not local authorities apply? I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will think about that carefully. Is it because they do not want the bother of applying, or because they think that the powers are a waste of time? I have the impression that some authorities regard the existing powers as inadequate; the powers in the Bill are much stronger and more precise. Could the Government perhaps send the simple message that, under the new powers, individuals who break the rules can have their licences removed and, consequently, their properties closed, and may end up with a serious court conviction?
I also have the impression that many people living in certain local authority areas who have suffered from the consequences of HMOs feel that no one is doing anything. I believe that, if it is made clear that those who do not apply for the appropriate licences can have the licences that they have been given revoked, and that those who have not applied may be subjected to fines and imprisonment, the Government's proposals will make a substantial difference. I certainly hope so. We must ensure that local authorities realise that tough new powers are available if, and only if, they apply for them.
I hope that the Government will give some thought to the "dumping" problem, and the undue attraction of individuals to such accommodation. I hope that they will see a case for doing something very simple. I have mentioned Southend, and the Milton ward in Westcliff. Is it unreasonable to ask the Government to consider asking an individual--or part of the Minister's Department--to consider what action might be appropriate in the area, in terms of the Bill? Nowadays, there is a terrible danger that the Government will produce an enormous number of reports, employing huge numbers of consultants, holding huge numbers of seminars and spending huge amounts of money, while no attention is being given to real problems. I have mentioned the problem in Southend and Westcliff's Milton ward. The council would be very
pleased if the Government thought it appropriate to consider how the problem has arisen and what further steps could be taken, perhaps in consultation with the council and all those involved with it.
As most hon. Members probably know, Southend is in an interesting political position. The majority of our councillors happen to be Liberal Democrats. I am involved with Southend, West--which I do not represent--where there are a good many Liberals, no doubt for good reasons. However, we have a Conservative party, and also a Labour party. I believe that we will probably still have three parties after Thursday's elections; but, irrespective of who is in charge, it is desperately important for everyone to work together to try to solve the problems.
In Southend--unlike Glasgow, where everyone seemed to regard political discussion as almost a recurrence of the civil war--I have the impression that, by and large, the parties work together if there is a real problem that they feel can be resolved. Does the Minister think that it might be appropriate for his representatives to discuss Southend's problem with representatives of all its parties? Could they say, "Here is a real problem; this is what the new legislation can do", and ask whether there is a way in which they can work together to improve the lifestyle of those living in HMOs and try to resolve the general difficulties?
The Minister should be aware that there are appalling cases of neglect, some of which I have mentioned. Individuals have been exploited, and property has been found to be in an appalling state. I had the pleasure of visiting one property with local authority officials, and what I saw appalled me. In fairness, it was years ago, but I saw no fewer than 14 people sleeping in one room--and it was not really a room; it was at the top of some stairs, in a sort of hallway. The local official involved was so appalled that he somehow managed to get the place closed. Of course, all the people there went somewhere else. I do not know where they went, but it is quite possible that they went to another place with serious problems. Such problems have to be faced. The Government are giving local authorities the opportunity of solving them with the exciting new powers in the Bill. I hope that authorities will respond to that by taking advantage of the opportunities provided by the Government, but I also hope that the Government will say that if, by any remote chance, it does not work as successfully as it should, they will not close their mind to a national registration scheme. It would be a second best, but it may be the only alternative.
Mr. Betts:
The issue is not simply one of technicalities, models or schemes but of the rights of individuals who live in houses in multiple occupation to be protected from landlords who need to be controlled by the sort of scheme that my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich(Mr. Raynsford) proposed. The need for control is clear from the weight of evidence of our observations in our areas and from what he said about the tragedies that have shown the failures of the current system.
Instead of giving tenants rights to ensure that they get protection from a control system in each local authority, the Government have given local authorities the right to apply for a registration scheme if they wish. That is our fundamental disagreement with the Government. In giving local authorities that right, there is an assumption
that they may not take it up. Tenants in some parts of the country may lose the right to have their homes properly regulated and to be properly protected from the excesses of landlords who may not behave in a fit and proper manner.
My hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich spelled out the danger of fires to residents of such properties. People are 28 times more likely to die in them than in ordinary rented property. Such properties are twice as likely to be unfit. We examined that evidence in great depth in Committee. The Government had no substantive argument against the fact that they are more dangerous to their occupants than other private rented properties.
Most Opposition Members would instinctively want to argue for freedom for local authorities to take decisions that reflect the needs of their areas. In many respects, it is right that local authorities should be free to choose priorities related to the requirements of their areas. In this case, however, we are talking about what are issues of health and safety at the very least and which have on several tragic occasions been issues of life and death, as was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich. In those circumstances, there should not be a right for local authorities to decide whether to introduce the aspects of the Bill that could enable them to prevent lives from being so wastefully expended, so tragically lost. Local authorities should have a duty placed on them to ensure that they take all appropriate action under the legislation available to give protection to people in such circumstances.
The people who live in HMOs are often there not through their choice but because of their desperate needs. They are often families that have been made homeless from other properties and are in HMOs because that was all that was available. They are often the poorest and most vulnerable people. Often they are students or young people who do not always think of the problems and difficulties that can result from inadequate fire safety provision or gas fires and gas equipment that has not been properly serviced. Such considerations are not the first things that come into young people's minds when they set off full of hope and expectation to university. After two or three weeks of desperate struggle looking around, they find somewhere to put down their heads at night. They deserve and must have full protection from the Government.
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