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Mr. Clappison: This is an important subject. The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Sutcliffe) was right on at least one point when he said that we had had a detailed debate. I am not sure that I go along with the rest of his contribution. It has been a detailed debate, and I listened carefully to the contribution by the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Raynsford). I hope that I shall not offend the hon. Gentleman too much if I say that I also listened carefully to his speech in Committee and I now feel that I am something of a veteran in terms of the points he raises.
Notwithstanding some of the expressions that the hon. Gentleman used, there is a large measure of agreement on several points connected with houses in multiple
occupation. I do not dissent from what he said about this being a big issue affecting many properties and, therefore, many tenants. I do not disagree with him when he says that, in some circumstances, standards are unsatisfactory and need to be addressed. I particularly do not disagree with him when he implies that there is a need for appropriate powers to deal adequately with those problems.
The hon. Gentleman was right when he said that there were two differences between the Government and the Opposition; I put it to the hon. Gentleman that the differences have narrowed to two. First, there is the question whether there should be a national licensing scheme, which is the subject of the new clause, and, secondly, there is the question of which types of houses in multiple occupation should be excluded from the scheme.
In one of the less immediately transparent and direct passages in the hon. Gentleman's speech, he dwelt at some length on that point, but then added that, of course, the Government were prepared to listen on that point and had tabled amendments. I shall come to what the Government propose when I turn to those amendments. The hon. Gentleman can see that the Government have thought about the matter carefully and have taken the exclusions from the Bill. We do have proposals, which I shall outline when we come to the relevant amendments. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that, when deciding which types of property should be included in the scheme, we have to judge the degree of risk. I think that that was implicit in what he said.
I take issue with the hon. Gentleman on a national licensing scheme. What he said throughout his speech was undermined by the fact that he put his case rather too high. He certainly put it too high when he suggested that the Government's proposals were ineffective because they did not include national licensing. He confused licensing and powers, and he underestimated the significant and important powers that the Bill will put in place which will allow local authorities to tackle the problem of houses in multiple occupation--powers that will, most importantly, differ in different circumstances. The hon. Gentleman is aware of the differences that will occur between local authorities that adopt powers under the control provisions and local authorities that adopt the special control provisions that they feel are needed to deal with their local circumstances.
It will assist the House if I take it briefly through the effects of some of the powers. My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) was absolutely right when he said, in an excellent speech, that the powers were stronger, clearer and more precise, and would make a substantial difference; he said that they were an important step forward. Those powers will be of benefit to residents in the Milton ward in Southend-on-Sea, which my hon. Friend mentioned, and in Westcliff-on-Sea, as they will assist other local authorities in similar circumstances, possibly in coastal resorts. Local authorities throughout the country will have the opportunity to adopt the powers which, in many cases, are tailored to meet their needs. They certainly reflect concerns that local authorities and residents have expressed.
I hope that all those who are aware of the tragic cases referred to in the debate will reflect on those powers, which are significant and address the problems of HMOs. The powers go further for local authorities that feel that they have a particular need because of the effect of HMOs on their area as a result of the way in which those houses are managed. Such authorities can go further and adopt the special control provisions, which provide a further tightening of the powers concerned. These important powers will enable local authorities--including those in coastal resorts--to bring to an end the state of affairs that is causing problems to residents.
We heard in Committee from my hon. Friends the Members for Scarborough (Mr. Sykes) and for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson), and today the hon. Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Timms) referred to the close interest being shown by Blackpool hoteliers in this issue. The hon. Gentleman may not know that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North has been in contact with me both today and in the past about the matter. I believe that he is in the Chamber now, and that he has brought a delegation of hoteliers from Blackpool to talk about the problems. [Hon. Members: "Where is he?"] My hon. Friend has certainly been here during the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East(Mr. Atkinson), who is here, has taken a great interest in the matter, and he is well aware of the problems in his constituency.
The Government have listened to all the representations, and the argument comes down to this: the special control provisions that are in place in the legislation will give authorities in coastal resorts the opportunity and the discretion to deal with the sort of problems that they are telling us about. Authorities can refuse to register the properties in question, or can issue an occupancy direction that will curtail the state of affairs about which the authority or the residents have complained.
The hon. Member for Greenwich said that there was a lack of standardisation in this area, and asked about landlords moving from an area that has control provisions or special control provisions to another.
Mr. Raynsford
indicated assent.
Mr. Clappison:
I see that the hon. Member for Greenwich is nodding his head. That was one of the slightly less practical points in his speech, and I would respectfully draw his attention to the other measures in
We are building on the provisions that are already in place which create important duties that those responsible for HMOs must fulfil. Clause 71 takes further the duty of people having control of HMOs to prevent certain states of affairs that have a bad affect from coming into being, and makes it an offence for someone to be in breach of that duty, which can be actionable in damages.
In my respectful submission to the House, there is in place in the legislation a tough and appropriate package of powers that will give local authorities the opportunity to deal with the problems in HMOs about which the House has heard. Those problems vary in their nature and incidence throughout the country. There must be flexibility. Flexibility is built into the legislation in terms of the strength of the powers that local authorities can take. It is important that local authorities reflect on that. If they feel that they have a problem in respect of HMOs, the powers are there for them to adopt.
I do not see local authorities permitting a state of affairs in which landlords move from one area to another to create problems with HMOs. The opportunity is there for all local authorities to deal with those problems by adopting the powers, which the hon. Member for Greenwich--who is fair in many respects--will accept are tough and effective. We have not heard any criticism of the effectiveness of the powers. It would be a mistake to undermine the effectiveness of the legislation by confusing licensing with powers and to overlook the fact that the powers that we have provided create opportunities for local authorities to opt, if they choose to do so, in an important way into dealing with the problems that HMOs can cause.
We have introduced a wholly effective and tough set of proposals which provide the opportunity for local authorities to deal with what both Conservative and Opposition Members agree can be serious problems.
Mr. Raynsford:
We have had an extremely good debate this evening. We have heard a number of valuable, thoughtful speeches. The debate has shown a clear majority in favour of a mandatory national licensing scheme. My hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts), for Birmingham, Northfield(Mr. Burden), for Newham, North-East (Mr. Timms), and for Bradford, South (Mr. Sutcliffe) and the hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Davies) all spoke in favour of a mandatory national licensing scheme. The hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor), in a thoughtful and forceful speech, made what I might describe as an each-way bet on the option.
According to my tally, that gives us from the Back Benches five and a half in favour to a half against a national mandatory licensing scheme. If the Front Benches are added in, that gives us six and a half in favour to one and a half against--a slightly larger majority than the majority of 75 per cent. of those who responded to the Government's consultation paper in November 1994 who said rightly that at that date there was a need for a national licensing scheme. As many of my hon. Friends have said, that was all the local authority associations. They all want it.
The voice of dissent here is the voice of the Minister. He seemed disappointed to hear the same arguments as he had heard in Committee. That is the result of arguing
these things out. If the Government had accepted our case in Committee, he would not have had to listen to me again today. It is his fault for not accepting the argument. That is the nature of democracy.
I accepted in Committee that there was an awareness and acceptance on the Government Benches that there was a problem of poor conditions, squalor, exploitation, bad landlords and, above all, life-threatening conditions such as dangerous gas appliances and lack of fire safety precautions which killed an unacceptable number of people every year in rotten houses in multiple occupation. All those things argue the case for more effective measures. The Minister said today that the Government were introducing more effective powers. He referred specifically to three items, to which I should like to respond briefly.
The Minister referred to the control powers and placing powers in the hands of the local authorities. I acknowledge that he rightly said that we had not argued against the powers. What we have argued against is the fact that the powers will not be mandatory--that there will not be a requirement on local authorities to operate them. As my hon. Friend the Member for Northfield said, in an entirely accurate and perceptive comment, it brings little or no satisfaction to a tenant living in unacceptable conditions who wants action if the local authority, for whatever reason--be it indifference, lack of care or scarce resources and considering that there are other priorities--says that it will not do anything about the situation and that it is not prepared to introduce the control powers.
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