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Mr. Hogg: The reception that the House gave to the hon. Gentleman's last points might suggest to him that he was not holding the House on those particular points.

First, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support. Secondly, as regards movement on gelatine, tallow and semen, clearly if we get it, it is modest; we would like more--we must have more--but it is welcome none the less.

As regards the 30-month rule, the scheme will become operational tomorrow. I always said that it would start during the week beginning 29 April. We will put out to all farmers an information note, and the hon. Gentleman will have seen an extensive advertisement dealing with that in at least three of the farming newspapers last week.

The hon. Gentleman will know that we have persuaded the beef management committee to agree to a live weight of 1 ecu a kilo and a dead weight of 2 ecu a kilo. That was secured last Friday.

The carcases of animals slaughtered under the scheme will go to rendering. They will be kept separate in distinct lines, and may be dealt with on separate days.

The exemptions are important. I spoke to Commissioner Fischler about that last week, and again frequently in the Council. I think that we will be able to make progress with the Commission on that point, and I shall go out to consultation, because it is important.

With regard to the selective cull, we clearly should consider reactions to our consultation process, both within the United Kingdom and from Community and Commission vets. The Commission vets made it plain to the Council and to everybody else that they endorsed the scheme that we brought forward and that they could not identify a scheme which they would commend in preference to our own.

Yes, identification needs to be improved, and we hope to have a much improved scheme in place by 1 June.

With regard to cattle born after the ban, if the hon. Gentleman would care to look at the dossier that I am putting into the Library, he will see a number of documents under the heading "A" which show an encouraging decline in the number of cattle born after the ban. Our concern over that question is one reason why we changed the feed regulations in the way we did.

Finally, of course it is desirable to accelerate the reduction in the rate of BSE. It is that thought which is, at least in part, behind the thinking that underpins the concept of a selective cull.

Several hon. Members rose--

Madam Speaker: Order. The entire House seems to be rising. It is unlikely that everyone will be called and it is extremely unlikely that Members will be called if there are long exchanges, so it is entirely up to the House how many Members are called. I want brisk exchanges, please.

Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries): Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that many of us are most grateful

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to him and his colleagues for the efforts they have made to resolve the problem? But will he also accept that it is now urgent that farms should get the 30-month-old cattle away and compensation paid, and that consideration should be given to the slow-maturing cattle? Will he do rather more than was apparent this morning to explain to the auctioneers and to the farmers what is to happen, when the beasts will be taken to the market, and all the details they so urgently require?

Mr. Hogg: My right hon. Friend is entirely right. At the end of last week, the farming press carried details of the 30-month scheme. I shall be sending a note to farmers and others with the relevant information. It is important now that the scheme opens tomorrow and that there is rapid progress through the collection points, and thereafter through the abattoirs, followed by early payment.

Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall): Does the Minister recognise that we share his objective of seeking to raise the export ban as quickly as possible? May I go further and commiserate with him most sincerely over the very difficult situation in which he has been put by two avoidable factors, the first being, of course--as Sir David Naish of the National Farmers Union made clear--the ultimatums, threats and sabre rattling of the Euro-sceptics in the Conservative party? As the Minister was not in the Chamber to hear it, perhaps I should draw his attention to the remarks of the Secretary of State for Scotland, who repeated precisely those accusations an hour ago, and said that they were making his task that much more difficult.

Is it true--as is apparent from everything that the Commission told me and my colleagues when we were in Brussels in the past 10 days, and from everything that it has told many Conservative Members--that, had the Minister presented his package of proposals weeks ago for informal consultation, by now we would be well on the way to removing entirely the ban on exports?

I shall put a specific question to the Minister, which obviously will require a specific answer. Yesterday, his colleagues in the Scottish Office Agriculture, Environment and Fisheries Department, in part 6 of a briefing paper, said:

"It has been suggested that we should cull whole herds, but that approach implies that BSE is transmitted from animal to animal, whereas on the available evidence that is not happening or not at any significant"--

Madam Speaker: Order. I have asked the House for brisk questions. It is totally unfair for hon. Members, when they see so many other hon. Members rising, to take up so much time with long quotations. Hon. Members know full well that the Minister is making a statement. They should come into the Chamber with their questions prepared and not have to sort through a great deal of paper to find a relevant section.

Mr. Tyler: I simply ask the Minister whether he endorses the Scottish Office's view that this disease can be transmitted from animal to animal. If he does, it blows the whole of his cull policy out of the water.

Mr. Hogg: The hon. Gentleman's support was a bit double-edged--none the less, I am grateful to him for the

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favourable aspects of it. Yes, of course speedy movement is important. To get it, we must have political good will among member states. We have had considerable assistance from the Commission, for which I am grateful, but we now must have good will from member states. That is what I say to my colleagues around the Council table.

Mr. Paul Marland (West Gloucestershire): In the light of the Europeans' blatant disregard of the best scientific advice available, does my right hon. Friend think that they have a hidden agenda, especially since the Irish have been saying that this ban is likely still to be in place by the autumn? Furthermore, is it time for us to start insisting that we will not accept meat into this country that has not passed through slaughterhouses with the same standards as we have in the United Kingdom? We know that there is BSE in Europe, and we also know that specified offal is not removed in slaughterhouses in Ireland, Germany, Spain or--most interestingly for McDonald's--in Holland.

Mr. Hogg: Many hon. Members will share the concern expressed by my hon. Friend at the end of his observations. As for his first question, there is no good scientific basis or other legitimate justification in law or in logic for the ban. We are facing a very deep concern among member states about the perception of consumers in their respective states, which is getting in the way of a rational, considered view of the evidence.

Mr. Andrew Faulds (Warley, East): What plans does the right hon. Gentleman have to set up a profound examination not only into the dangers of cannibalisation of feed but into the much more disturbing and profound problem of transgenic experimentation?

Mr. Hogg: It is clearly important to have a view about the risk that feed has posed to the health of the national herd. We have a clear view on that, and it was our concern which led to the ban on the incorporation of feedstuffs, in the first instance of ruminant protein, and thereafter of all mammalian protein.

I will tread a little cautiously on the second point, because I am not sure exactly what the hon. Gentleman had in mind. Research on transgenic mice has been important in determining whether BSE is transmissible.I hope that the hon. Gentleman would support that.

Mr. David Nicholson (Taunton): Over the past six weeks, my right hon. and learned Friend has shown extraordinary patience with our European partners, but he must be aware that that process has sorely tested the patience of many in the farming and beef industries, who are crying out for clear and detailed decisions regarding a resolution of the matter. Bearing in mind the remarks made a moment ago by my hon. Friend the Member for West Gloucestershire (Mr. Marland), will he consult and take decisions with his Cabinet colleagues about how much further we can go from the very selective slaughter policy that he has proposed, because I do not think that Conservative Members would back such progress, and what other measures we need to take to safeguard our national position?

Mr. Hogg: My hon. Friend said that the crisis and the reaction to it have sorely tested the patience of the

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industry. He is quite right. I am also conscious of the fact that it has sorely tested the patience of right hon. and hon. Members. I have explained to my colleagues around the Council table the huge importance, expressed in political terms, of making early progress. I have explained that with reference to such considerations as I know are in the mind of my hon. Friend. I entirely endorse his sense of exasperation and frustration that progress has been so slow.

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