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Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North): Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the concern that, if there are too few collection points for cull cows, many calves and other animals will go to those collection points, and other markets will lose business and may well be threatened? Will my right hon. and learned Friend look carefully at that issue, and consider licensing other collection points?
Mr. Hogg: On the general point, of course it is important there should be a sufficient number of collection points. When we see the system in operation, we shall certainly reflect on whether the number is adequate. I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me--as will my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield(Mr. Winterton)--if I do not accede to specific applications on the Floor of the House, as that is not an orderly way to conduct business.
Mr. Andrew Welsh (Angus, East): As the Irish Agriculture Minister believes that the blanket ban will still be in place in the autumn and the science involved takes time, will the Minister take note of the early-day motion calling for a zonal or regional approach to breaching the blanket ban? It was supported by 86 hon. Members from all parties and by several European Ministers. Surely a step-by-step approach should start with a breach of that blanket ban. Gelatine is one thing, but it does not compare with beef. The Minister's present policy is a waste of beef, and a waste of time.
Mr. Hogg: The slaughter of all the cattle involved in the 30-month-plus scheme, for example, is a dreadful waste of beef and money. I have the highest regard for the judgment of Mr. Ivan Yates, the Irish Agriculture Minister. I know him well, and I like working with him. He will be the next president of the Agricultural Council, and I hope to persuade him that it is not in his interests that the ban should be in place for that length of time.
Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East): On fruit and vegetables, which we discussed earlier, did the Minister offer his congratulations to his colleagues in the European Union on the fact that the food destruction programme, which last year reached 2.5 million tonnes and was designed purely to keep prices artificially high, appears to have broken all previous records? Will he tell the House straight--as I am sure he will--the cost to the taxpayer of the 30,000 cull that he is proposing, or the larger one that the Labour party supports? May we have some figures as to how much the taxpayer will pay?
Mr. Hogg: In the end, it all depends on the numbers that are brought within the selective cull scheme and the extent to which we can get Europe to contribute to the
costs. Therefore, although I could provide figures, they would be speculative, and not of the solid variety that I know my hon. Friend likes.
Mr. Roy Beggs (East Antrim): The Minister has done his best, but I am afraid that it is not good enough. The simple reason is that it is not in the interests of any other member of the European Union to concede that the blanket ban should be lifted. In order to provide assurance, he should have implemented throughout the United Kingdom the provision that exists in Northern Ireland for identifying our cattle herds.
As he says that there must be progressive lifting of the ban, will he seize the opportunity--where there is a measure of consent in the European Union--to adopt a regional approach? That is the only way to overcome the prejudice that exists, no matter how often we seek to confirm from scientific evidence that all British beef is safe. It is more important to get British beef moving, and I appeal to the Minister to help us--especially in Northern Ireland and Scotland, where we can meet the conditions that are being sought.
Mr. Hogg:
I am grateful for the remarks with which the hon. Gentleman began his question. It is perfectly true that Northern Ireland has a traceability and identification scheme from which the rest of the United Kingdom has a great deal to learn. We will have a good scheme in place by 1 June, although it will not be in every respect identical to the one in Northern Ireland.
It is certainly true that the Northern Ireland herds have very low levels of confirmed BSE. However, I have a preference for proceeding collectively, so that the policy that we pursue applies throughout the United Kingdom. The exemption policy that we are pursuing will be of particular benefit to Northern Ireland producers because of the character of the herds in the Province.
Mr. Mark Robinson (Somerton and Frome):
I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend's assurance that the cull scheme will start tomorrow. May I urge him to ensure that abattoirs are given the details of the scheme? As of this morning, a major abattoir in my constituency could get no details whatever from MAFF.
Mr. Hogg:
My understanding is that all abattoirs have the details; I am sorry that my hon. Friend knows of a case which apparently does not. If he will be good enough to talk to me or a colleague afterwards, we can perhaps make sure that the details are faxed this afternoon.
Mrs. Ann Winterton (Congleton):
I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on his brave attempts at the Agriculture Council; but I must tell him plainly that every man and woman in this country can now see that we in this House are not the masters of our own destiny; and that the European Union has nothing to do with fairness or scientific fact and everything to do with politics--as the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) said--and protecting markets. Every cattle market in this country has been adversely affected by the BSE crisis. Why are there to be only 80 collection points? Every cattle market should be a collecting point, and I want the Congleton cattle market among them.
Mr. Hogg:
It seems to me that the Winterton family is, collectively, a powerful advocate of certain causes. I shall
I am grateful for my hon. Friend's congratulations.I was right to suspect, however, that they would not be undiluted. I repeat what I have told many hon. Friends today: we have been pursuing the policies that we judge the most likely and the most effective to lift the ban.
Sir Ivan Lawrence (Burton):
Has my right hon. and learned Friend told his European colleagues that most people in this country think that, if we can be treated like this by our European friends, our membership of the Union is not working well? Has he told them, furthermore, that, as it is unlawful for them to ban our exports, we might consider unlawfully banning their imports? One way we can boost our beef industry is to redirect our exports to our domestic market. If that means banning imports of German, French or any other European beef, so be it.
Mr. Hogg:
I have certainly told fellow Ministers in the Agriculture Council and others that a failure to solve this problem would seriously damage relations between the UK and the European Union, and between the UK and member states. I have tried to spell out to my colleagues the serious political consequences in this country of a failure to move on this matter. They know that--I have told them so many times.
Mrs. Jacqui Lait (Hastings and Rye):
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, if we were not a member of the European Union but still faced a worldwide ban on our beef exports imposed by individual countries, we would have to negotiate at the World Trade Organisation just as we are negotiating now with the EU? Would that not be infinitely more complicated?
Mr. Hogg:
My hon. Friend makes a serious and important point. Of course, we have focused a great deal of effort and attention on the EU ban--the House knows why--but a large number of national bans have been imposed by countries outside the EU. They too need to be dealt with. I believe that removing the EU ban would be an important element in getting at least some of the national bans removed.
Mr. Graham Riddick (Colne Valley):
Bearing in mind the fact that the EU's ban on the worldwide sales of British beef is unacceptable and perverse, is it not time that the Government, rather than awaiting further good will from our European partners, took active steps to promote the sale of British beef in countries outside the EU, and also took steps to ensure that the bans in some of those countries are lifted? It is action that British farmers and meat traders require.
Mr. Hogg:
We have focused on a number of priorities, of which the most important is, I think, to try to bring urgent assistance to the UK farming community, and that we have done in great measure. We have placed great importance on getting the EU ban lifted. There are national bans too that need to be addressed, and we shall address them.
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale):
My right hon. and learned Friend has done as well as anyone could have
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