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Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The requirement is that the decision of the licensing board must be intimated to the licence holder forthwith. The hon. Gentleman is raising a different point, which I think we shall come to in discussing another amendment. I might return to the matter then.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. McFall:
I beg to move amendment No. 13, in page 1, line 10, leave out 'or'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse):
With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 14, in page 1, line 12, at end insert
'; or
Mr. McFall:
Amendment No. 13 is a paving amendment for amendment No. 14, the effect of which would be to ensure that the provisions of new section 18A of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 applied to all licence extensions. The reason for it is that the provisions of new section 18A apply currently to licences, occasional licences and occasional permissions under the 1976 Act. Regular extensions and occasional extensions are omitted, and there seems no logical reason for that.
(d) a regular or occasional extension under section 64 of this Act.'.
Accordingly, the amendment remedies that, because we could find a licensing board giving an occasional extension to premises for a 21st birthday party, and the premises getting that extension for up to one month. There is flexibility in the amendment, and I hope that the Minister will consider it seriously.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
With respect, I do not think that the amendments are strictly necessary and indeed, if introduced, they might cause confusion for the licensing boards, because they would create inconsistency between the new arrangements and existing procedures covered in the 1976 Act. I welcome the opportunity to explain the position.
The types of licence or permission to which the provisions of clause 1 will apply are listed in the new subsection. As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, the purpose of the amendments is to add regular or occasional extensions granted under the provisions in the 1976 Act, which enable alcohol to be sold outwith the statutory core hours, to the list in new subsection (1). That implies that conditions attached to the licence fly off during any occasional or regular extension of permitted hours granted in relation to the licence. I am glad to confirm that that is not the case. A licence holder would be required to observe the conditions attached to his licence, not only during the normal permitted hours, but where he or she has authority to extend the sale of alcohol beyond the normal permitted hours during such extensions.
Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East):
The Minister seems properly to have stated the position. The foundation for any regular or occasional extension under section 64 of the 1976 Act arises only once a licence has been granted under section 17. Therefore, if a condition attaches to the original grant of licence, it inevitably follows that the condition must attach to any regular or occasional extension of that licence. Therefore, on this occasion, perhaps much to the Minister's surprise, I find myself in agreement with him. His analysis of the effect of the amendment is entirely correct and I join him in suggesting to the hon. Member for Dumbarton(Mr. McFall) that it be withdrawn.
Mr. McFall:
The forces of the law are closing in on me. I take the advice that has been given to heart and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 16, leave out 'conditions' and insert
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 20, in page 1, line 19, after 'attach', insert
Government amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 4, at end insert
Amendment (a) to the Government amendment, in subsection (3A), after 'Secretary of State' leave out 'may' and insert 'shall'.
Amendment (b), in subsection (3A), after 'subsection' leave out 'may' and insert 'shall'.
Government amendment No. 3.
Amendment No. 23, in page 2, line 13, at end insert--
Government amendment No. 5.
Amendment No. 27, in page 2, line 31, after 'music', insert
Government amendments Nos. 7 and 8.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
This group of Government amendments deal with the proposed introduction of a power to enable the Secretary of State to prescribe conditions which licensing boards must attach to licences in relation to premises at which relevant events are to be held. The amendments fulfil undertakings that we gave in Committee to bring forward on Report the changes required to provide for this.
The amendments address concerns raised in debate that boards might not implement the provisions in the Bill with the same consistency or rigour. We are of course committed to issuing guidance on the nature and form of conditions that may be attached to licences.
We cannot guarantee that that guidance will be followed consistently by each board. As hon. Members who were present recognised when we debated this issue in Committee, the health and safety of the young and vulnerable are important enough to require certain minimum standards to be applied across the country as a whole. We therefore agreed that the Secretary of State should have available a power which he can exercise, if required, to prescribe minimum conditions which boards must attach to relevant licences. That will ensure that the basic policy underlying clause 1, which has received support from all sides, will not be undermined through inconsistency of approach.
Amendment No. 2 introduces the necessary order-making power and amendment No. 1 imposes the duty on boards to adhere to the terms of any order made by the Secretary of State under it.
As the intention of the amendments is to ensure that there is, if necessary, a core of minimum conditions to protect young people attending relevant events, amendment No. 5 provides that the attachment of the Secretary of State's prescribed conditions to a licence may not be appealed by the licence holder. However, the terms of the conditions imposed by the board, where the Secretary of State has simply described the type of condition which must be applied, will be subject to an appeal to the sheriff in the same way as any other condition imposed at the board's discretion.
Amendment No. 8 ensures that "prescribed conditions" are defined for the purposes of the Bill. The other amendments, Nos. 3 and 7, are consequential drafting amendments.
I hope that hon Members will welcome the amendments which introduce a mechanism, arising out of representations in Committee, whereby minimum conditions can, if it proves necessary, be set for the whole of Scotland.
I commend the amendments to the House.
Mr. McFall:
I thank the Minister for that explanation. I accept his arguments on Government amendmentsNos. 7 and 8.
With regard to Government amendment No. 5, the Minister said that the right of appeal to the sheriff cannot apply when the Secretary of State has made his decision. That is why consultation on the Secretary of State's conditions is paramount. The Bill removes the right of appeal on the Secretary of State's conditions. We need the agreement of all parties regarding the tenor of those prescribed conditions. I seek the Minister's further comment on that.
The Opposition's amendment No. 20 takes into account the effect of the Government's amendments. Amendment No. 20 corrects a Government error. The Bill currently refers to:
with regard to the conditions of a licence. The Government's amendment of that in their amendmentNo. 2 should contain a reference to the prescribed conditions in new subsection 18A(2).
Perhaps the most important Opposition amendment in the group is amendment No. 23, which states that the Secretary of State shall prescribe conditions. We remember back to the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 when local authorities were allowed the power to prescribe byelaws. If I am correct, only 44 out of 57 local authorities undertook that. Therefore, it is important that there is an obligation on local authorities to have the conditions. The Minister kindly sent me a copy of the model licence conditions which have gone out to local authorities, but I still feel that there must be an obligatory element.
The Government are not laying down in concrete exactly what will apply in each and every area. They should be setting the outcomes so that there is a consistency of approach throughout Scotland and throughout different local authorities. On Second Reading, a number of right hon. and hon. Members said that such lack of consistency in the original Bill was a matter for concern. I should like the Minister to consider that issue closely.
Amendment No. 23 suggests that the Secretary of State may consider it necessary to include
Under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 a number of authorities prescribed conditions at dances and, as we had, raves. I should like to see that adopted throughout Scotland. I think that the authorities were Stirling, in the Secretary of State's constituency, and West Lothian. The number of persons who may attend an event is extremely important. When we look back to the Hangar 13 incident, we find from police statements that the number of young people at the event exceeded the desirable number.
There is also the issue of stewarding. We have had representations from a number of local authorities--for example, in Glasgow--for stewards to be properly qualified. The training and qualifications of stewards who attend such events is extremely important. We have quite a distance to go yet to ensure that we have that standardisation of approach to training and qualifications.
The Opposition have also sought to define a medically qualified person. The Government have attempted that in another area, but it is important specifically to determine a medically qualified person and the number of such people who should be at these events. If individuals or organisations put on the events, they have certain obligations, and it is important to have in the Bill exactly what those obligations are.
'the prescribed conditions and such other conditions as the board considers necessary'.
'the prescribed conditions and such other necessary'.
'(3A) The Secretary of State may, by order, prescribe the conditions which are to be attached to a licence or permission under this section, and an order made under this subsection may prescribe--
(a) the terms of any such condition; or
(b) the description of any such condition, the terms of which shall be specified by the licensing board, and such an order shall be made by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.'.
'(4A) The conditions referred to in subsection (3A) above shall without prejudice to any other provisions which the Secretary of State may consider necessary include the following--
(a) the number of persons who may attend the event;
(b) the number of stewards who shall attend the event;
(c) the training and qualifications of the stewards who shall attend the event;
(d) the number, training and qualifications of medically qualified persons who shall attend the event;
(f) that the licence holder should provide without charge fresh drinking water to those attending the event.'.
' "medically qualified person" includes any person qualified as a doctor, nurse or paramedic;'.
"The duty of the licensing board under subsection (1)"
"the number of persons who may attend the event".
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