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Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I agree with the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) that there should be consultation before any order is made. It is important for us to have a consistent policy that is applied throughout Scotland.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) raised the issue of the model licensing conditions and mentioned certain drafting improvements that can be made. We shall look at the improvements, as the guidelines have not been finally approved.
We shall look at the guidelines in relation to what the hon. Member for Paisley, North (Mrs. Adams) said and revise them as appropriate. At this stage, the guidelines merely give an idea of the conditions that may apply--they will not be finalised until we have consulted widely.
The hon. Members for Paisley, North and for Dumbarton raised the issue of stewards and training. The power that licensing boards will be given to set conditions can well accommodate a requirement for adequately trained door stewards. Indeed, we would expect the boards to consider such a condition as one of the minimum requirements, and it will be highlighted as such in the model conditions. A new Scottish vocational qualification in door supervision will soon be available. This has been prepared in partnership with the security industry training organisations. Such training initiatives should have a positive effect in improving the standards and the public image of door stewards.
I am grateful to hon. Members for their comments about the conditions being obligatory. We should try to get the provisions right, and I believe that we have done so. We were concerned--Opposition Members shared our concern--that some licensing boards might not apply the requirement to impose the conditions properly. Therefore, we felt it necessary to put down the Government amendments as a precautionary step. At present, we have reason to believe that licensing boards will act responsibly and implement the policy fully. That is surely the correct basis on which to proceed.
We shall monitor practices closely, and if that does not happen, the Secretary of State can step in. We should not pre-empt the decision making of local licensing boards at this stage, as it would be undesirable to undermine their
responsibility. However, if difficulties arise, we shall be in a position to do something about it. In view of the strength of feeling expressed, I am willing to reconsider our attitude on this subject.
I shall give an example of why we have dealt with the matter in that way. I refer to the issue of numbers. We believe that a certain amount of local discretion is appropriate in determining the numbers. It is difficult for the Secretary of State to prescribe an obligation on numbers. We shall review the matter closely in the light of what happens and take further action if necessary. At the moment, we believe that the other amendments are not necessary. The Government amendments are necessary to give the Secretary of State the necessary powers. I am grateful for the support of the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell).
Mr. McFall:
It was worth waiting to hear about the Government's initiatives in higher education--a certificate in door supervision. I look forward to the Minister presenting the certificates. I refer to the empirical evidence. The City of Glasgow Licensing Board recently wrote to me in relation to training staff and stewards. The letter stated:
The board's experience has led it to the conclusion that the training of staff and stewards employed in licensed premises is an extremely important factor in providing a well-run and trouble-free environment. The board has already introduced its own initiatives in regard to training. More recently, in a well-publicised move, it introduced a five-point plan intended to eradicate drugs in licensed entertainment venues.
The board states:
but concludes that
The hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) and my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, North (Mrs. Adams) mentioned chill-out areas. The Glasgow licensing board has said that it has spoken to the Scottish Drugs Forum about the issue, and that the forum considers the term unfortunate. The concept of a quiet lounge area outwith the discotheque environment, already in place in many establishments, is apparently what was intended by the reference. The Scottish Drugs Forum seems to be content to withdraw the term "chill-out area". I ask the Minister to consider the issues involved.
We speak of model licensing conditions. We do not want a missive to be sent from St Andrew's house saying exactly how many individuals should be allowed into a venue at any one time; that can be prescribed locally. The people concerned should be obliged to take the necessary action, however. The filling in can be done at local
level--discretion can be given for that--but the Scottish Office should issue an order for that to be done. That would provide some consistency.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
I shall be happy to examine the matters that the hon. Gentleman has raised.
Mr. McFall:
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Unfortunately, it is a Government amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. McFall:
I beg to move amendment No. 17, in page 1, line 16, after 'of', insert '(i)'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss also the following amendments: No. 18, in page 1, line 17, after 'health', insert ', welfare'.
No. 19, in page 1, line 17, after 'event', insert
Mr. McFall:
Amendment No. 17 is consequential: it is a paving amendment for amendments Nos. 18 and 19. We consider that the conditions that the licensing board is obliged to provide under new section 18A should safeguard the health and safety of those attending raves; but health and safety are not the only matters with which the board should be concerned: it should also be concerned about the welfare of individuals. That might not include all types of provision that a licensing board can make, however. The welfare category could include the hours during which such an event takes place, the physical environment and, perhaps, the volume of the music.
Amendment No. 19 imposes a new obligation on licensing boards to promote knowledge of the effects of misuse of alcohol and drugs. The duty on licensing boards in respect of promoting the health and safety of those attending raves needs to be tempered by information that allows people to make informed decisions about their health. The Minister will note that we have included alcohol as well as drugs in the amendment. We think it important to educate people about that. We welcomed the all-party approach to drugs adopted by the Government and the Opposition parties in Scotland, but people must be educated at local level. Licence holders organising such events should be obliged to disseminate information about the misuse of alcohol and drugs.
As the Minister knows, many young people are abusing alcohol to an unacceptable extent. Some brewers and other companies have produced "alcopop", which I believe is aimed specifically at very young people. A local educational programme should be provided to counter that. Yes, we are placing an obligation on licence holders, but they are dealing with young people who may be vulnerable, and it is important for them to have obligations.
Mr. Galbraith:
I support amendment No. 19 in particular: I am in favour of the concept of continuing education. I do not intend at this stage to deal with the
We often forget that alcohol is a drug, in the sense that many other substances are drugs. We should not seek to distinguish the different kinds of drug for historical or social reasons. I am only disappointed that the amendment does not include tobacco. People who find that they have to smoke are addicted to nicotine: they are nicotine drug addicts, and in that sense they are no different from any other addict, although it is socially less acceptable to admit. Those who indulge in tobacco do not want to admit that they are physically dependent.
When we consider the number of people who die as a result of drug taking, we tend to go by the generic terms. We think of heroin and cocaine, for instance. In 1994, 247 people in Scotland died as a result of using drugs defined in that way. More people--335--died of illnesses directly related to the ingestion of the drug alcohol, while 3,000 died from diseases associated with alcohol.
"Glasgow Licensing Board considers that it has been at the forefront of promoting the responsible management of licensed entertainment premises by licenceholders within its jurisdiction."
"To a large extent . . . these initiatives are supported by the licensed trade",
"the licensing of stewards employed in licensed premises is an issue which the Scottish Office should take on board. However, to date the Scottish Office have resisted the Board's repeated requests in that regard."
'; and
(ii) promoting knowledge among such persons about the effects of the misuse of alcohol and drugs.'.
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