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Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South): Does my hon. Friend accept that most people in Northern Ireland agree with his argument--particularly about measures that improve the quality of life? However, there are those who would question whether we should always rush along the materialistic road down which the Government have taken us at times. We want to uphold some spiritual values in Northern Ireland, rather than joining the Gadarene swine.
Mr. Ross: I accept that my hon. Friend speaks from a theological position, but I ask him to be an evangelist in this instance. We should try to export to the rest of the United Kingdom the spiritual values that we in the Province hold dear. It would not be the first time that evangelists from the island of Ireland have converted the English. We shall try our best to do so again if we are given the opportunity.
Despite my hon. Friend's comments, I am in favour of keeping Northern Ireland in line with Great Britain. We should determine a United Kingdom position, which hopefully embodies the spiritual values of Northern Ireland. I hope that that will become general practice--it will certainly save the time of the House in many instances.
We must remember that all the items being deregulated this evening were included in the legislation that created them for a very good reason. In other words, they were created in order to avoid or to prevent an evil consequence or to correct an existing evil. Whenever we consider deregulation of any sort, we should ask ourselves why the original evil that we intended to avoid is now redundant.
That is the point of the Deregulation Committee. Hon. Members from all major political parties are represented on the Committee, and they probe, ask questions, request information and examine witnesses. Before anything is deregulated, it is explored more thoroughly in that Committee than is possible in a debate such as this, when several items are being dealt with together. I hope that the Minister will take my comments on board, and examine how we can integrate our deregulation procedures with those of the United Kingdom and the House as a whole.
We are told that the Horticulture Act (Northern Ireland) 1966 was chosen for deregulation because it has been overtaken by other legislation. But surely those who framed that legislation--which is also listed--could have repealed the Act at that time. In other words, there was a slip-up, and the Act was passed over. That should not happen.
We are told that article 4, which refers to the gas in foam on beer, brings Northern Ireland into line with Great Britain. There has been a row about that in the Common Market, but we now seem to have reached a fairly sensible conclusion.
Article 5 refers to the Auctions (Local Control) Act (Northern Ireland) 1957. The hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Dowd) made the point that there is a problem with auctions in some parts of London. Are we repealing a power that was not widely used because those who would transgress knew about it? If so, we should think carefully before we remove that power. Sometimes the passive existence of a power is sufficient to stop an evil, and the law accomplishes its purpose without taking people to court.
Article 6 represents a further erosion of the Sunday quiet that we have enjoyed hitherto. That takes me back to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth). I believe that Northern Ireland is wrong to move towards making Sunday into just another day of commercial activity. The matter was debated in the House, but unfortunately the Government carried the legislation into practice. Although we were not in favour of it, it is now the law of the land.
I think that it was a mistake, and that, in future years, it will be seen as such and we shall have to repeal it. Such a change does not create freedom; it simply promotes a licence that is misused by many people for many different purposes.
Turning to article 7, the same general point could be made about the Betting, Gaming, Lotteries and Amusements Order 1985. Those matters are being dealt with in the Deregulation Committee.
In respect of article 8, I am curious as to why a taxi driver should be treated in the same way as any other driver. A taxi is a public service vehicle taking citizens and non-citizens around on their lawful business. I believe that people need the full protection of very high-quality drivers. That has been the case hitherto. It helps to keep cowboys off the streets and should not be abandoned lightly.
Rev. Martin Smyth:
Does that mean that the volunteers who drive people to and from hospitals are no longer required to get public service vehicle certificates, or does that requirement still exist?
Mr. Ross:
My hon. Friend makes a valid point, which I hope the Minister will cover in his reply to the debate.
Article 9 permits Northern Ireland Departments to amend Northern Ireland legislation to include good practice procedures. We shall have to wait and see how that works out in practice.
Article 10 again permits certain changes in the Department of Economic Development, and gives it additional powers.
All those questions require answers. We cannot probe matters in the same way as the Deregulation Committee. The Minister may promise to answer our questions in writing, but that reply, with which we have become so familiar in appropriation debates, fails the test of public awareness. An answer is sent to an individual Member. It not on the record of the House or on the public record, and I hope the Minister will take that on board.
The contracting out part of the order brings Northern Ireland into line with Great Britain. There is much I could say about it, but I know that other hon. Members wish to speak. I have a problem with some of its provisions. The change to the dogs order is welcome, but there is a problem with the agricultural census order, and a particular problem with the social security administration order.
Mr. Anthony Steen (South Hams):
I have no problem with the contracting-out part of the order, but I have problems with the deregulation provisions. I always welcome measures that promote deregulation, and it was a pleasure to hear my right hon. Friend the Minister of State introduce the order in his normal inimitable way, which has been accentuated by the fact that it is his birthday today. What better way could there be of spending one's birthday than introducing such a measure?
I speak tonight because the people of Northern Ireland need to be warned: they must not have high expectations of the order. Our experience of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 shows that little has happened since in the United Kingdom. That Act took 16 hours and 11 minutes on the Floor of the House, and another92 hours 56 minutes in Standing Committee. One would have expected that to produce an outstanding Act of Parliament.
In fact, the Act established the Select Committee on which the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) has had the privilege and honour of serving. It has not really been much of a privilege and honour, because the Committee has sat 34 times, each time for one and a half hours, and has considered only 24 deregulation orders. That must have been a galling experience.
The orders that the hon. Gentleman has considered with the Committee are to do with greyhound racing, parking equipment, and gaming machines; there have also been the long pull order, the length of the school day order,
salmon fisheries orders, special hours certificates and the gun barrel proving order. I can understand the hon. Gentleman's frustration at serving on the Select Committee. He would certainly not want the same to happen following enactment of this order.
Apart from four of the orders, the rest of them combined save business £628,000. The gun barrel proving order saves just £200, but cost £9,500 to draft. The Committee itself has created a new tier of bureaucracy. It has four full-time staff, it spends £31,000 on printing its reports, and it introduces a whole new parliamentary procedure. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not want Northern Ireland to follow that example.
Deregulation in the United Kingdom is a new growth industry. It is one of the fastest growing industries we have, in fact. I congratulate the Government on privatising this new form of industry. Even The House Magazine is organising a conference on how the system of deregulation works.
On the one hand, we are repealing irrelevant regulations to do with tattooing and casinos, saving business virtually nothing; on the other, we still churn out domestic and European legislation with heavier compliance costs than all the savings made in the name of deregulation.
Another problem is that Opposition private Members use their time to introduce Bills that cost private commercial businesses a great deal of money. The new legislation on activity centres is a case in point; it will cost businesses £10 million to enforce the relevant regulations. I therefore hope that Northern Ireland will learn from our experience and not go down the same track.
Worse than all this is the rise and rise in the number of statutory instruments. Since Lord Sainsbury's task force report, which suggested repealing 605 regulations, we have passed 7,839 new statutory instruments. I hope that this order will not achieve the same in Northern Ireland. There is no point in repealing regulations if we pass more than 12 times as many new regulations at the same time.
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