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Mr. McGrady: Accountability and responsibility are important in Northern Ireland. My experience as a Member of Parliament is that if I ask questions about a sector of a Department that has been agentised, my letter is not answered by the Minister, but referred to the agent. I cannot raise in the House questions that I have hitherto been able to raise on behalf of my constituents. The Minister may say that one is administration and the other policy, but the Howard situation shows that there is a grey area in between.
Sir John Wheeler: Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are moving beyond the scope of the order, but if you will allow me a brief indulgence, I shall try to assist the hon. Gentleman, because it is in the context of accountability that he raises his question. He is right to say that, where an agency has been established, it is the responsibility of its chief executive to respond to questions raised by Members of Parliament. However, Ministers are not removed from the scene; they remain firmly responsible for the policy objectives of the agency, and, indeed, set them.
In replying to questions from hon. Members, the chief executive of the agency is delivering direct and personal accountability for the work for which he or she is responsible. I suggest that that is an improvement in accountability. Instead of the chief executive being an anonymous civil servant, he becomes a person known in his or her own right, and accountability is accordingly advanced. Of course, the agency publishes its annual report and sets out its policy objectives. All those can be examined and challenged by Members of Parliament. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that.
Mr. William Ross:
The Minister has given a full explanation of how the agencies allegedly work, but does he really think that the Child Support Agency would have lasted as long as it did without major revamping if it had been directly under the control of a responsible Minister in the House?
Sir John Wheeler:
Again, we go somewhat adrift of the order. However, the Child Support Agency has been the subject of detailed analysis, including that of the
The hon. Member for South Down also referred to employees being ignored by the order. Employees are not ignored. Contractors are required to observe the requirements of equal opportunities legislation and of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981, known as TUPE. Those provisions remain.
Mr. McGrady:
Will the Minister gave way?
Sir John Wheeler:
In fairness to other hon. Members who have spoken, I should like to make a little more progress. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I should like to catch up on one or two other points that have been made.
The hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Dowd) raised a number of points. He referred to forms in Northern Ireland. The importance of ensuring that forms are simplified and not too numerous is fully recognised by the Northern Ireland Departments. Indeed, a review of all forms unique to Northern Ireland and issued to business has been carried out by the Northern Ireland Departments, to ascertain whether all the forms are necessary and as user-friendly as possible. Of the 123 forms reviewed, 37 have been identified for redesign. So, work is in hand. The hon. Gentleman also asked whether there would be any significant changes in the licensing of taxi drivers. As is the norm, there would be consultation with the representatives of the organisations concerned.
The hon. Member for Lewisham, West also mentioned his interest in equal opportunities and fair employment. Since I have already referred to that, I can confirm that the Government are committed to promoting and securing equality of opportunity and equity of treatment for all people in Northern Ireland in accordance with the law. The equal opportunities legislation in Northern Ireland is among the most stringent in Europe, which underscores that point. Indeed, it is sometimes criticised for being so stringent. Guidance on market testing does not stipulate particular employment policies and practices, but it is made clear to the prospective contractor that he must comply fully with the relevant equal opportunities legislation. I am glad to tell the hon. Gentleman about that.
I thought that I also heard the hon. Member for Lewisham, West use the phrase "public sector bad; private sector good". I was puzzled about that, because his hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) has become a convinced convert to the concept of contracting out and the best use of public money. When he spoke at the Manchester business school on 29 April, he said, among other things:
I agree with him and welcome his remarks.
In looking at the order, I think that that means that there has to be the means of testing that very concept. How does one test whether the public sector is delivering value for money and providing quality unless one has the means of testing through contracting out and market testing? The hon. Member for South Down, who appeared to question the whole concept, should perhaps look at the remarks of the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East. It is clear that, whoever forms the Government of the UK, those concepts are now a firm part of our public service thinking.
Other hon Members raised various points, and I shall pick up one or two of them. The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) referred to spiritual values, and stated that they should be maintained as opposed to being deregulated. He referred in particular to the interesting part of the order that refers to a 1695 Act passed in the reign of our late sovereign William III--of blessed memory in Northern Ireland--and the intention of the order to allow participation in Sunday sport. I accept the hon. Gentleman's good intentions, but surely in this day and age it should be a matter for individual citizens--including those of Northern Ireland--to decide how to spend their time on a Sunday.
For many people, Sunday is the family day out, and deregulation of all Sunday sporting events will add to their choice. The hon. Member for South Down referred to Downpatrick race course--a facility that I have enjoyed visiting--and his dilemma as to whether the provisions of the order should apply there. If people want to go to the races on Sunday at Downpatrick, they should be allowed to do so. All hon. Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland will know that, whatever the legislation says, it is almost impossible to reach Knutt's Corner on a fine Sunday in the summer because of the volume of traffic as people go to an illegal open-air market. People are therefore participating in activities on Sundays, and it is right that the law should be modernised to reflect what people wish to do.
Rev. Martin Smyth:
The Minister said that I referred to a particular Act, but I did not. I asked my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) whether he accepted that there were places that we did not want to go--especially when going down the road of materialism following the Gadarene swine. In that context, the Minister's last illustration shows that the law is not being exercised at Knutt's Corner market.
Sir John Wheeler:
The hon. Gentleman should employ his undoubted skills as a preacher to inculcate moral values in the people in Northern Ireland. The civil law must reflect the customs and practice of people in our age, and one must recognise that people in Northern Ireland choose to exercise their judgment in these matters on Sunday at Knutt's Corner.
The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) also asked why the order does not include the general order-making powers of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994. It is well established that, where policy changes are proposed and legislation is to be amended, proposals should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The general enabling powers in the Northern Ireland setting
would have meant that amendments to effect deregulatory changes or remove obstacles to contracting out would have to be effected by subordinate legislation without any parliamentary consideration. The Government thought that that approach was not acceptable and so decided to employ this legislation today.
The hon. Gentleman also asked whether people taking visitors to hospitals would still need PSV licences. Unfortunately, I cannot give him the answer that he sought on that, as PSV licences are not within the provisions of the order, and it will be necessary for me to make inquiries elsewhere in the Northern Ireland Departments. But when I have the answer to the hon. Gentleman, I shall write to him and give him the necessary information.
The hon. Member for South Down--
"The first question any government should ask about public spending is what any business manager would ask: not how much more money you should spend, but how to use existing spending better."
1 May 1996 : Column 1271
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