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AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Beggs, Roy
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Boswell, Tim
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cran, James
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Elletson, Harold
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
French, Douglas
Gallie, Phil
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Luff, Peter
MacKay, Andrew
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maginnis, Ken
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Pickles, Eric
Rathbone, Tim
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Shaw, David (Dover)
Sims, Roger
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Spencer, Sir Derek
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strgfd)
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Twinn, Dr Ian
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Whittingdale, John
Wood, Timothy
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Simon Burns and
Dr. Liam Fox.
NOES
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Dewar, Donald
Dowd, Jim
Godman, Dr Norman A
Illsley, Eric
McGrady, Eddie
Michael, Alun
Mowlam, Marjorie
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Skinner, Dennis
Worthington, Tony
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Llew Smith and
Mr. Harry Barnes.
Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse):
With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to delegated legislation.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation).
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Conway.]
Mr. Llew Smith (Blaenau Gwent):
In recent times, we have celebrated the end of apartheid in South Africa, the anniversary of the Chartist struggle in south Wales and the work of the suffragettes in other parts of the country. Those people had many things in common: their bravery, their sense of justice and their recognition of the potential power of the vote. Indeed, their struggles helped to ensure that the millions of people who were disfranchised eventually received the vote.
In the United Kingdom and in other parts of the European Union, we are considering ditching the things that those people fought and sacrificed so much for, merely so that we can become members of a single currency and the economic and monetary union. How will this affect the value of the vote that those people struggled for? The answer is simple: among other things, we shall have to become a member of the European central bank. The European central bankers will be responsible for the major economic decisions, they will be appointed for eight years and, no matter what damage they inflict on us, no one will be able to remove them.
Democratically elected Governments will be helpless if they wish to tackle problems such as unemployment and poverty--the power to do so will no longer be in their hands. If hon. Members doubt this, they should do what the Chancellor of the Exchequer failed to do some time ago--read the Maastricht treaty. In particular, I refer hon. Members to the part of the treaty that states:
Not only will democratically elected Governments no longer be responsible for the major economic decisions; as that quotation shows, they will not even be able to influence those unelected and unaccountable bankers. While people will still have the right to vote, that vote will be a gesture--a charade--because the parties, peoples and Governments for whom they vote will no longer have powers to rectify the wrongs inflicted on them.
We saw an example of the transfer of powers from democratically elected politicians to unelected and unaccountable bankers some months ago. Then, the Chancellor of the Exchequer overruled the Governor of the Bank of England on interest rate levels; but, if we join the single currency, it will be the Euro-bankers and not the Chancellor of the Exchequer who will make decisions on interests rate levels, the money supply, Government borrowing and, indeed, whether we wish to devalue. As the Maastricht treaty reveals, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not even be allowed to influence such decisions: if he does, he will be acting illegally. I hope that some hon. Members appreciate the irony of that.
In "A Partnership of Nations" the Government have the audacity to claim that they are trying to prevent
and they state elsewhere in the same document that they intend to
That is nonsense. Subsidiarity means bringing power closer to the people; it certainly does not mean putting it into the hands of bankers. To agree to that process would be to betray our history of Chartism, and to betray the suffragettes and many other brave people.
Some, while recognising the undemocratic nature of the treaty, still seem to believe that all is not lost, because those bankers could still agree on progressive policies to create jobs and combat poverty. That would be a most unusual type of banker. If anyone is naive enough to believe such a notion, a quick glance at the treaty will reveal that the central bank's objective is not to overcome unemployment. There are 50 clauses and four protocols concerning price stability, but not one clause spells out anything about unemployment.
I am also interested in the position of the Welsh and Scottish nationalists: their pro-single currency, pro-European central bank stance, together with their dream of independence. If that should ever come about--I hope that it will not--they will immediately recognise that it is independence in name only. The most important decisions will be made by that most powerful of all quangos, the European central bank.
My position is straightforward. Not only do I--like the nationalists and others--oppose rule by quango in Wales, Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom; unlike them, I also oppose such rule by quango from Europe. I want to extend democracy and accountability, rather than destroying them. Nor--this is linked to what I have just said--do I understand those who want to devolve power to a Welsh Assembly or Parliament, while at the same time supporting the centralisation of power in the hands of the European central bank in Frankfurt. The powers of all the quangos in Wales, Scotland and, indeed, the United Kingdom will be not nearly as great as those of that one quango based in Frankfurt.
The European central bank should not be seen in isolation from the single currency and economic and monetary union. What effect will the adoption of a single currency have on policy-making and our economy? Writing in the Sunday Times on 31 December last year, the respected political commentator Peter Kellner had this to say:
That the draft Deregulation and Contracting Out (Northern Ireland) Order 1996, which was laid before this House on 7th March, be approved.
That the Trustee Investments (Division of Trust Fund) Order 1996 (S.I., 1996, No. 845), dated 18th March 1996, a copy of which was laid before this House on 19th March, be approved.
That the draft Charities (Trustee Investments Act 1961) Order 1996, which was laid before this House on 21st March, be approved.
That the draft Jobseeker's Allowance (Pilot Scheme) Regulations 1996, which were laid before this House on 28th March, be approved.
That the draft Income Support (Pilot Scheme) Regulations 1996, which were laid before this House on 28th March, be approved.--[Mr. Conway.]
11.56 pm
"Community institutions . . . and Governments of member states undertake not to seek to influence the members of the decision making bodies of the European central bank . . . in the performance of its tasks."
"the erosion of national parliaments",
1 May 1996 : Column 1275
"entrench subsidiarity into the Treaty".
"any country which abandoned its national currency not only loses the right to devalue; it also loses its power over interest rates, money supply and (to some extent) government borrowing . . . Britain would lose all real control of its economic destiny.
With a single currency, changes in interest rates, or the price of oil or food on the world market, will affect different countries in different ways. Yet national governments will lack the means to respond to the different problems that arise. They will have none of the financial levers that finance ministers normally use in order to avert recession or minimise hardship. If, for reasons outside its control a country tied to the euro suddenly becomes less competitive, its government will have little or no power to prevent a sharp rise in unemployment."
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