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6.52 pm
Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield): Any Member of Parliament who goes around the country will know that the dominant problems that concern people are unemployment, the crisis of people's fears about housing and homelessness, dereliction and, for many people, despair. The Bill is supposed to be about housing and regeneration but will do absolutely nothing to deal with those problems. Clauses 124 and 125 deal with grants and I shall refer to them later. Homeless people and those worried about dereliction or their jobs--some of whom may work in the construction industry--who listened to the two Conservative Members who have spoken would wonder whether the Government and their supporters were totally out of touch.
On Sunday morning, I visited a group of people who went to a site owned by Guinness by Wandsworth bridge. Yesterday, 500 people turned up there to build a sustainable village. I hope that the House will bear with me in referring to that because it relates to the Bill. The site is 13 acres and has been derelict for seven years. It has been brilliantly and appropriately renamed "Pure Genius". It consists of an old oil depot and a distillery near the riverside. Near it are flats that are supposed to sell at £190,000 that people cannot afford to buy.
The group is called "The Land is Ours" and has spent six months bringing together architects, building craftsmen, plumbers, electricians and engineers. I met an unemployed soil scientist who told me that he worked at night as a cashier in a supermarket because he could not get a job as a soil scientist. Yesterday, 500 people turned up and began building their huts, lavatories, gardens and farms. It is the anniversary--this is something that few hon. Members will remember, although I certainly do--of the great occupation that took place in 1946, when demobilised service men occupied empty sites and began building for themselves.
The key question that the House must address is simple. Do we believe that the right to a home is a basic national right? Is it in the national interest that everyone should have a home of their own? Under the Liberal Government before the first world war, Lloyd George said that the nation's health was a national interest. I remember being told that after the second world war and thinking, "It's obvious; we've got the health service." However, it is not obvious now that the nation's health is in the national interest.
The House has never accepted--and the Bill does not accept--that people have rights to homes, though anyone in their senses knows that a good home underpins family
life, protects people, provides an environment,and deals with many of the problems of law and order and crime. We must establish that the House believes, however long it takes, that everyone is entitled to a home. After the war, I remember Lord Woolton boasting that, if the Conservatives were elected, they would build 400,000 houses a year. They did pretty well in the 1951 general election on that promise.
The second question is, why is there homelessness?My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras(Mr. Dobson) pointed to the negative equity figures and the number of people who were behind with their mortgages. My opinion is that homelessness is a necessary discipline of a capitalist society. If we walk along Embankment at night and see people in cardboard boxes, we think, "If I have row with my employer, get sacked, cannot keep up my mortgage and get repossessed, as 1,000 people a week are, I would be in a cardboard box." Unemployment is designed to frighten people into obedience, and homelessness is the final threat. We are sometimes told that fewer days are lost in industrial disputes than were lost under the last Labour Government. But if we take the days lost in industrial disputes and those lost through unemployment together, the figure is far, far higher than it was when Labour left office.
The whole argument about home ownership is a fraud. I go to public meetings--I did 171 last year--and I ask how many of the people there are home owners. Many people put up their hands, but when I ask how many have not got mortgages, they all put their hands down again. There are many home buyers and but few home owners. Home owners are free but home buyers who have mortgages that they cannot keep up suffer from all the fears that I have mentioned.
The country needs between 90,000 and 120,000 affordable homes a year. We have the necessary skills. There are 500,000 unemployed building workers. There are sites all over the place. In London alone, derelict sites cover an area as big as the borough of Westminster. We have the money. Do not tell us that if local authorities spent their £6 billion from the sale of council houses, they would have to raise the rates. They would get the money back. They would invest in housing and get the rents back. On that basis, it would be better for the authorities to sell off everything they own. It is time we addressed those questions.
I do not want to detain the House for long because I know that many other hon. Members want to speak. The main question is the ownership of land. I introduced a Bill 10 years ago to bring the land into common ownership. The first privatisation was the Enclosure Acts, which took common land and handed it to the large farmers. The highland clearances were the same. From the beginning of time, people in this country have had a feeling that the land belongs to them. Even Lloyd George said so. I remember his song about "the land, the land, the land on which we stand; why should we be paupers with the ballot in our hand? God gave the land for the people." In 1381, the Reverend John Ball said:
In 1649, the Levellers said:
If we study the history of the subject, we find that the people feel that the land belongs to them.
The argument about whether it is legal to occupy an empty site that is owned by Guinness does not concern me because, under the Heresy Act 1401, it was an offence to read the Bible. It was an offence to hold many religious opinions in the House and to argue for votes for women--Emmeline Pankhurst went to prison. It was an offence not to pay the poll tax. Although the House never likes to be reminded of its history, when people do something outside, it is ignored or laughed at, but it turns up a few years later as official policy. The Government are totally out of touch with what people feel, particularly young people.
Clause 124 is the reason why I can link my speech to the Bill. It states:
The activities are listed as:
that is what is happening at the Guinness site--
that is what happens with that type of movement--and
Those are the powers that are to be given to the Secretary of State and one of the comforts is that the present Secretary of State will be off in a few months. We shall have a Labour Government and my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, who made such a powerful speech, will have those powers at his disposal. I ask him to consider seriously encouraging people who need homes to take over derelict land and build sustainable villages of their own. Hon. Members may laugh, but they have laughed at everything from suffragettes to the Chartists and trade unions. They always laugh. That is their privilege, but history never records such views to be correct.
Mr. Peter Thurnham (Bolton, North-East):
First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister for Construction, Planning and Energy Efficiency on the enormous amount of work that he has done on the Bill. It is a great credit to him, and without his massive personal commitment it might not have come about. His sincere
My hon. Friend the Minister mentioned the work done by his staff. I can certainly endorse that. When I was Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Secretary of State for the Environment in 1992-93, the Department was concerned to do all that it could to improve matters in the construction industry. I am aware of the great input of staff in the Department; great credit is due to them.
This Bill is extremely important. Part II will affect the livelihood of many hundreds of thousands of people in the construction industry. Indeed, I should declare an interest, as it will affect me as a professional engineer. We just heard an excellent speech from the Member for Chipping Barnet (Sir S. Chapman), who declared a negative interest, I think--I am not sure how many people cease to practise as architects. I once heard a definition of an architect as someone whom one never employs twice, but perhaps it would be unfair to apply that too broadly. His speech illustrated the importance of having hon. Members in the House with a broad background, who can bring experience of an industry and speak as well as he did.
The Bill will also affect the 2,000 members of the Electrical Contractors Association, which I have been proud to represent for most of my 13 years in Parliament. The new Register of Members' Interests is published this afternoon. I believe that the House is much the better for having many hon. Members with a diverse range of interests and experience of the real world of work before they come here. We should certainly avoid encouraging a Parliament full of career politicians, who demand higher and higher salaries for Members. It is far better to have hon. Members who are not solely dependent on parliamentary salaries and have a wide range of interests in the world outside. I was nearly turned down as a foster father because the social services thought that my parliamentary income was far too insecure. I was passed as fit only because I was a professional engineer with another income.
It is only right that trade associations should be properly and openly represented in Parliament. The Electrical Contractors Association is, I am glad to say, one of the strongest associations in the country, with a record of representing the best interests of the specialist construction industry as a whole. For instance, the electrical contractors' training and apprenticeship schemes are acknowledged to be the best in the country, bar none.
Much consultation has taken place and, as the Minister said, great credit is due to Sir Michael Latham, whom the Department of the Environment so wisely chose to head the team and whose report is the foundation for the Bill. Sir Michael achieved a great deal more than many people thought possible. We are all indebted to him because the industry plays such an important part in the economy, representing nearly 10 per cent. of gross national output. If a 30 per cent. improvement in efficiency were possible, it would give a 3 per cent. boost to that output.
The ECA, with some 2,000 member firms and 50,000 employees, is a major constituent of the Constructors Liaison Group, which represents specialist sub-contractors
in the construction industry. The CLG welcomes the main provisions of part II of the Bill so far as they embrace the recommendations of the Latham report, but wants the Government to go further than the changes already suggested during the Bill's progress in another place.
First, on the definition of the industry and the question of scope in part II, the process industries should be included. I am a little uncertain why they are not, but perhaps the Government lack confidence in the Bill. It is a good Bill and, therefore, the more of the industry that it embraces the better. We should not hang back. The work that specialist subcontractors do in the process industries is just the same as the work that they do in the rest of the construction industry. It is fair to say that there is a difference with the process industries, in that they are not speculative as some building is--the process industries do not put up towers like Canary Wharf--so that sector of the industry is rather more secure and stable. That does not mean to say, however, that it is a utopia for sub-contractors.
I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will think again about extending the scope of the Bill so that sub-contractors are in no doubt that the work that they do for process industry contractors will be embraced in the same way as the Bill embraces their work elsewhere. As things stand, sub-contractors face the same sort of free for all when working in the process industry as they do elsewhere in the construction industry. It is important, therefore, to include the process industries fully in the Bill.
Off-site work and steel work should be included in the Bill. Modern processes, which often lead to more work being done off site, should not for some strange reason be excluded from the excellent provisions of the Bill.
Maintenance and repair, which according to the Department's own definition account for more than 50 per cent. of the industry's output, should also be included. It is currently unclear whether it is included. Perhaps the Minister will clarify in his reply whether maintenance repair is included and will also deal with the issue of design.
Adjudication, which arises under clause 107, has already been mentioned. I am certainly pleased with the way in which the Minister has taken account of the representations made in the other place, and I believe that we are now getting nearer to a workable definition. It is still important that we have tighter definitions so that we can be absolutely clear about how the adjudication process will work and can avoid confusion over arbitration. The Government are well aware of the strength of the points made by Lord Ackner when he spoke very well on that matter in the other place, stressing the rubric of "pay now, argue later" as the basis for adjudication rather than arbitration. It is very important that we have a completely clear distinction on that point.
I accept the Minister's argument that the draft scheme is much better kept as a statutory instrument and that the Government will have time to consult more fully on it in the autumn after the Bill becomes law. I was a bit concerned when the hon. Member for Holborn andSt. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) said that he would do all that he could to stop the Bill. I am not sure whether he was referring to the entire Bill or only to parts of it, but I certainly look forward to seeing it on the statute book. I hope that Opposition Members will confine their
opposition to certain parts of the Bill and will not try to stop it completely. The excellent measures that it proposes will be welcomed and should become law sooner rather than later. I hope that the Opposition will understand that point.
It is essential that the Government get the draft scheme right. Therefore, they should consult fully and properly on it. As a statutory instrument, it will be open to amendment at a later date more easily than if it were part of the Bill.
The payment issue is causing the most concern to sub-contractors because it is the key to survival for small firms; it is life or death for them. For large firms, it may not matter very much whether an adjudication, arbitration or legal action goes one way or the other. It may be uncomfortable if large firms lose an action, but they will survive it, whereas it is a matter of absolute survival for small firms. It is therefore essential that the definitions are very clear.
We are confused about clause 108. We do not see why 60 days should come into the matter. The CLG would like subsection (1) to be deleted. It cannot see any sense in having a 60-day threshold in the first place. I have never heard of such a thing, and would be happy for it to be30 days--which is the normal arrangement. There seems to be no need for that subsection at all.
Clauses 109 and 110 require much better definition to ensure that they work properly. As I said, it is absolutely vital for small firms to know that the provisions will work properly. It would be a disaster if the Bill reached the statute book and enabled clever lawyers employed by large firms to outwit small firms because of provisions that had not been properly thought through. Amendments have been proposed by the CLG. The Government are aware of the amendments, and I hope that they will feel able to introduce them as Government amendments in Committee.
It is essential that payment mechanisms are properly developed and provisions on debt are clearly established. It is not clear from the Bill exactly when a debt would become a debt and how the payment mechanism would work.
Clause 112 covers the ignominious practice of "pay when paid". That practice has existed for some years, but it has recently become more prevalent. Once it starts in an industry, it spreads right through because each person feels that he must pass on the practice to the next person in the chain, so that the whole industry becomes riddled with it. It is perhaps the most important clause in the Bill, as long as it works properly.
It is again felt that better definitions are needed, as there may be ways in which some people may be able to avoid the Bill's provisions. It is essential that that bad practice is eliminated from the industry, and it is much to the Government's credit that they are introducing the Bill so that this, of all the worst practices, will be eliminated. It will do more than anything else to improve sub-contractors' sense of security. They need the certainty of cash flow to be able to pay their wages.
I am uncertain where the Government stand on the question of trust funds, which formed a very important part of Sir Michael Latham's recommendations. If I remember rightly, he said that he did not want his recommendations cherry-picked, and that they should be taken on board as a whole. I hope that the Government
will feel able to consider including trust funds and that, if amendments are tabled in Committee, the Government will feel able to consider them positively--or, ideally, to table their own amendments to make trust funds a reality.
Trust funds would deal with the whole problem of pay when paid because, if the money is there, it can flow through and the fear of insolvency does not need to arise.
I have confined my remarks principally to part II of the Bill, with which I have been most concerned, but all the Bill's provisions are important. I am interested in the provisions on disabled facilities grants. I noticed that many of the Bill's measures have been widely welcomed, but I know from my experience that there is a need to improve some procedures, certainly in relation to assessment.
A year or two ago, I was asked to help a constituent of mine who had been turned down for a shower seat because he lacked sufficient priority. When I went to see him, I found that he was a double-amputee. He had no legs, but he was considered to be an insufficient priority to have a shower seat. He was still registered by social services as having one leg. That is one example of how assessment procedures can be way behind what they should be. It is essential that we improve the way in which people are assessed and the speed with which it is done.
"Things will not go well in England till all property is held in common".
"The land is a common treasury. It is a crime to buy and sell the land for private gain."
"The Secretary of State may, with the consent of the Treasury, give financial assistance to any person in respect of expenditure incurred in connection with activities which contribute to the regeneration or development of an area."
"securing that land and buildings are brought into effective use",
"contributing to, or encouraging, economic development",
"creating an attractive and safe environment"--
"preventing crime or reducing the fear of crime"--
"providing or improving housing or social or recreational facilities, for the purpose of encouraging people to live or work in the area or benefiting people who live there".
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