House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1996 (pt 11)

Orders of the Day

Armed Forces Bill

As amended in the Select Committee, considered in Committee.

[Mr. Michael Morris in the Chair]

Ordered,

That the recommitted Bill be considered in the following Order, namely, Clauses 1 to 4; New Clause 5; New Schedule 1; Clauses 5 to 7; Schedule 1; Clause 8; Schedule 2; Clause 9; New Clause 3; Clause 10; Schedule 3; Clauses 11 to 13; Schedule 4; Clauses 14 to 27; New Clause 4; Clauses 28 to 31; Schedules 5 and 6; Clause 32; remaining New Clauses, other than New Clause 1; remaining New Schedules; New Clause 1.--[Mr. Ottaway.]

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

Enlistment or Entry for Local Service

4.42 pm

Mr. Bruce George (Walsall, South): I beg to move amendment No. 81, in page 2, line 10, at end insert

'Provided that no regulations shall be made under paragraphs(j) and (k) above until a full report on the consultative process and pilot studies relating to the Ministry of Defence police has been made to the House.'.

I move this amendment with some reluctance because I was hoping that the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill would agree with my general attitude on the future of the Ministry of Defence police, which the clause addresses. If implemented, the clause would cause considerable damage to that fine organisation. Unfortunately, the Committee--with the casting vote of an excellent Chairman, who had this one lapse--did not agree. Because the voting was five to five, and the Chairman's vote consigned the amendment not to the clause but to the relevant part of the report, I thought that I should give the House an opportunity to consider the two views on the matter--which are not and should not be party political--and to discuss clause 2 and what it entails, particularly for the MOD police.

The MOD police is a non-Home Department police force that has served with great distinction for many years. My intention is not to try to wreck the concept, but merely to give the House an opportunity to consider in more detail what the MOD has in mind for the future of the MOD police. As we all know, the clause is intended to set up a new organisation, which will clearly have a detrimental effect on existing organisations. I repeat that my amendment is intended not to wreck anything but to give the House an opportunity to debate what the MOD is still in the process of doing--undertaking a series of consultations on the future of defence organisations and defence concepts. If my amendment secures sufficient support, I hope that the MOD will pause and give some thought to those matters.

No monopoly on wisdom is held by any individual or political party anywhere in relation to security policy. In relation to defence, which is the responsibility of the MOD, clearly the right decisions have to be made. Unfortunately, over the years other members of the Select Committee on Defence and myself have reached the conclusion that the MOD does not always get things right on policing and security.

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The Defence Committee was largely responsible for stopping the privatisation of security at the royal ordnance factories when they were taken out of Government control in the early 1980s. Later, that Committee played an enormous part in ensuring that, when British Aerospace took over the royal ordnance factories, it took with it the MOD police. The Committee produced a very critical report on the MOD Deal barracks bombing, and it is currently in the midst of another evaluation of a substantial change being considered by the MOD.

The Defence Committee is still examining the report produced by the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill, of which I was a member. Unfortunately, the MOD police and security have been subject to almost constant examination. I recall the Broadbent report in 1984, the "Guarding of Defence Installations" report in 1989, the Blelloch inquiries and the Rucker report--some of which was made public. There have been investigations on several occasions by the inspectorate of constabulary, and internal inquiries. I fear that the MOD is getting it wrong again, and I want to give it time more seriously to consider what could be a precipitate decision.

If the MOD police were reduced to 2,500 in number--an almost inevitable consequence of the process of change that is being undertaken by the MOD, which will certainly be accelerated should clause 2 be passed--I fear that it would be extremely traumatic. If that happened, morale would sink very low and many of the best MOD police officers would leave, taking advantage of the compulsory redundancy terms on offer. For some years, the quality of the MOD police is likely to be impaired, but it would eventually recover.

Sir Jim Lester (Broxtowe): In terms of the morale of the MOD police, I know that the hon. Gentleman knows that Chilwell and Chetwynd barracks are carved into my heart. I find that it will be the pilot scheme for this change. It will happen by April 1997--less than a year. There is considerable concern among the MOD police on the site in my constituency and among the local population, who feel that soldiers parading the fences around the depot would not have the same force as policemen, who have the power to intervene with all sorts of people in cases of burglary, car theft or whatever. So I am listening carefully to what my colleague is saying. I should say to my hon. Friend the Minister that it will be difficult for me to vote against the amendment.

Mr. George: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. His comments reinforce the point that I have sought to make over the years, that security should never be seen as a party political issue. The fact that members of the Defence Committee agree with much of what I say suggests that the Government should proceed with considerable caution.

My amendment of the text of the Select Committee report was intended to say, "Look, the MOD is making a series of inquiries into the future of policing and security. Please do not take any major decisions until that inquiry has been completed, evaluated and passed on to the House and its Defence Committee for evaluation." Surely there is nothing too dramatic about that. Nothing should be done until the Defence Committee has completed its overall examination based on the evidence that has been given to us and the forthcoming visit by the Minister, to which we are all looking forward, and reported. Nothing

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should be done until the pilot studies to which the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Sir J. Lester) referred have been evaluated--I suggest that they should be evaluated independently as well as by the MOD. Only when all those legitimate conditions have been fulfilled should the Ministry of Defence proceed to make the changes that it appears hellbent on making.

It is my considered judgment that the MOD already has a mix of policing and security forces, from which it can draw to meet any future requirements, without recourse to the establishment of yet another organisation. There is surely a super-abundance of security and policing organisations. As yet, no justification has been given for creating one more.

Military home service engagement is a spurious concept that has not been properly explained. Nor has it secured the support of the House of Commons. It is in my view a further attempt to get at the MOD police because it is perceived that costs are too high. I say that security must not be tampered with and that the ultimate criterion by which we evaluate good policing and security is its success in catching adversaries, criminals and fraudsters and deterring potential ones. One should not be profligate, but surely one should not drive down costs to such a level that the organisation's future is in jeopardy.

I presume that, if the scheme goes ahead, soldiers recruited will be given redundancy payments and then re-employed. That is a distinct possibility. They will serve according to different conditions of service from those under which they serve in the armed forces.

We are several thousand soldiers short at present. The Navy and the Air Force want nothing to do with the scheme. It is hard to keep soldiers in the Army and to attract more soldiers to join the armed forces. Soldiers are now given a bounty if they can recruit a mate. If we cannot keep soldiers in the Army at existing pay rates, how are we to entice them in with lower pay, no overtime, no benefits and lower status? They will not have access to free housing or a housing allowance. I wonder how these men and, I presume, women are to be recruited. They will be expected to serve Queen and country, yet this bizarre little organisation is being set up, which requires men and women to serve only in a limited area.

All of us who watch the Napoleonic wars being fought out weekly on the television are familiar with the old redcoat song, "Over the hills and far away." If the clause is accepted tonight, the song will need a slight amendment. It will go:

"Queen Anne commands and we'll obey Over the hills and as far as Wolverhampton."

People recruited in the west midlands will be required to serve Queen or King and country only within the travel-to-work area. It seems to me that it will be rather difficult to motivate people in those circumstances. Whatever the Minister says, it will be a second-class, inferior Army. That will make it even more difficult to recruit.

The MOD tested opinion among a few hundred soldiers and asked whether they would like to serve in some future guarding force. Twenty-five per cent. said that they would be interested, but they were not told what the wages would be, that they would not be allowed to work overtime or that they would not receive a housing allowance. So that little survey was spurious.

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