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5.15 pm
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow): Speaking as a reformist rather than as a revolutionary, I must at the outset declare a constituency interest. A goodly number of my constituents work across the Firth of Clyde at Calport and Faslane--some of them as police men and women. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) reasonably and sanely argued against the Ministry of Defence taking a precipitate decision about the terms and conditions of employment for those men and women. They are a fine body of decent, loyal, hard-working and highly skilled officers who deserve much better than that which the Bill proposes.
No change should be made before there is a genuine consultative process that involves those police officers or their representatives. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) spoke of the range of duties performed by MOD police, and he made the significant point that they often have to act against civilians. That is most clearly seen on the other side of the Clyde when there are demonstrations against nuclear submarines entering the river. As I have witnessed some of those demonstrations over the past 25 years, I can say with confidence that MOD police handle those often difficult situations in a mature and level-headed way.
I am not sure how many MOD police officers are employed at Calport and Faslane, but they must number 200 or 300. They, with their colleagues elsewhere in Scotland and south of the border, deserve fair-minded treatment. If they are to be presented with change, it can be legitimate only when it meets some of the understandable concerns and worries felt by those officers. I ask the Minister to accept the amendment and to ensure that any change is made only after genuine consultation with the representatives of the police officers in question.
Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport):
I share the regard for the dedicated service given by Ministry of Defence police. I voted, as Chairman of the Select Committee on the Bill,
The question is not whether the pilot scheme should be subject to scrutiny, but how that scrutiny should be carried out. The right way to maintain scrutiny of the pilot study is through the Select Committee on Defence. My hon. Friend the Minister was good enough to brief the Select Committee when the concept of local service engagements was first put forward, and he is to appear before the Committee on 4 June. We will continue our study and scrutiny, and that is the right way to do it.
Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North):
Since everyone else has had a say, I am more or less obliged to say something. This is an important issue, but there are other important issues before us tonight, so I shall keep my comments brief. The Minister knows my views, which I have expressed. I am not convinced that we need another guard service or that we will be able to recruit the members of such a service as he suggests. I am thoroughly unconvinced that the figures for supposed costings have been prepared well, since we do not even know yet what the redundancy payments for the Ministry of Defence police would be.
The matter was discussed at length in Committee, and it has been voted on. It has been the subject of an investigation and it will continue to be investigated by the Defence Committee. The Minister has already given assurances. I hope that he will repeat his assurances tonight about the genuine nature of the pilot scheme and I hope that that will be sufficient to allow my hon. Friends not to push the amendment to a Division, which would unnecessarily divide us across parties.
The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Nicholas Soames):
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid), and I am happy to repeat to the House the same assurances that my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) set out.
We have had a good debate. The hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) feels very strongly about such matters, and I have a great deal of respect for him. His knowledge of defence matters is positively daunting, and I look forward to what I understand will be a cheerful and, I hope, brief exchange with him in the Defence Committee. I am sure that the business will be dealt with and dispatched with the vigour and speed that is well known. I should be in and out in about 15 minutes.
My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) has, throughout, expressed great concern and interest in the Ministry of Defence police, and not just because the Ministry of Defence police do an admirable job in his constituency. My hon. Friend is aware that many of the defence agencies, which operate extremely effectively in his constituency, often make representations to him about the importance of trying to bear down on the costs of guarding, which are very high.
I am aware of the visit to Newbury by the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) and of his views, because he was good enough to discuss them with me earlier. My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) paid a warm tribute to the brilliance of the Government and I share that view wholeheartedly. My hon. Friend has always regarded me as a paralysed wet when it comes to his views on revolutions. The changes are not a revolution, but a nice adjustment. I noted carefully what my hon. Friend said and I shall deal with the important points that he raised.
The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow(Dr. Godman) also has an extensive MOD police presence in his constituency. He and I discussed this matter when he came to see me the other day. My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport was an able and admirable Chairman of the Select Committee and I am sure that we all wish to pay tribute to his work. I am happy to extend to him again the reassurances that I gave the Select Committee.
Clause 2 will give the armed forces the flexibility to recruit personnel for military service in a specified locality rather than worldwide. As the hon. Member for Walsall, South knows, that is not an attempt to get at the MOD police--but nothing will ever persuade him that it is not, because he has it fixed in his mind firmly that we are trying to get at them. I wish to join the hon. Gentleman and all those hon. Members who paid tribute to the work of the MOD police. They do a splendid job and are a fine force that is greatly respected.
There are some tasks that might be unattractive to, or inappropriate for, full engagement regulars, but they might none the less best be carried out by uniformed service personnel rather than by civilians or police officers. The reasons for considering the use of local service personnel could vary according to the circumstances of the case. There are no plans or proposals for the general introduction of local service schemes other than for guarding. The Bill would give the option to introduce such schemes if the services saw a need for them before the next Armed Forces Bill in five years' time.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport said, the matter has been carefully discussed in the Committee, and we have been round this buoy on several occasions. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury raised an important point about joint working. As he knows, I wholly endorse his views. I am determined to press forward on the matter, and I know that there is already a joint arrangement on Salisbury plain, which my hon. Friend has seen and which is extremely impressive and works well. I note his comments and I am well aware of his views.
On current assumptions, the size of the MOD police is expected to fall to between 2,500 and 3,000 by the early years of the next century. I want to make it plain to the House that it is my intention that they remain a substantial force able to provide a civil policing service, where that is required, throughout the whole Department. The chief constable and I are entirely confident that a force of 2,500 to 3,000, properly structured and resourced, will be able to do so. The force will lose some of the work that does not need to be done by police officers. In future, it will concentrate more on its constabulary role, as Sir John Blelloch recommended.
I agree with the hon. Member for Walsall, South that the MOD police must be the most reviewed police force in the country. It has emerged from all the reviews with
great credit, and the suggestion that morale is low is not true. They have had a difficult time, as have other parts of the Ministry of Defence, during a period of great change. The Select Committee heard from the chief constable that morale is not as low as some hon. Members have suggested.
Sir Jim Lester:
One of the pilot schemes is taking place in my constituency. I can assure my hon. Friend that morale is not very high. The MOD police have been visited by somebody who talked about redundancy and how quickly the pilot scheme could be brought in. With respect, I request my hon. Friend to be sensitive to the people affected by the pilot schemes--never mind the bigger schemes--before any final decision is made.
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