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6.45 pm
Clearly there may well have been cases in which a modern court would not have convicted the accused soldier. Medical evidence as to the state of mind of the individual soldier--whether the offence was desertion, murder or mutiny--may be crucial in a modern court. That evidence is not available from the files, although I acknowledge the point made by the hon. Member for Thurrock about the book by Lord Moran and the "bank of courage". Lord Moran was the first doctor to recognise the very serious problems of stress and other disturbances in battle.
I recognise that, with the passage of time, attitudes may change, but I am not convinced that legislation for pardons is the right way to reflect the fact that some people might now disagree with the laws and procedures in force at the time under different circumstances. The files of 89 per cent. of the cases where sentence of death
was commuted have not survived. This is unfortunate, since, in isolation, the comments of the confirming officers from divisional and corps commanders upwards to the commander-in-chief in the 11 per cent. of cases where sentence was confirmed, may appear to be harsh. Apart from the desire to set an example--not always spelt out in court martial records--it is clear that an important factor in confirmation was whether the actions of the accused were deliberate.
The rules that applied during the first world war differ from those now governing the conduct of courts martial. However, these soldiers were convicted by a properly constituted court, according to the laws and procedures of the land, of an offence punishable by the imposition of the death penalty. That we do things differently today cannot alter that fact, uncomfortable as it might be for many of us, including the hon. Member for Thurrock. He has waged a good and honourable campaign for those men, and I know that he will not accept that.
This is an issue that does not lend itself to easy solutions, and the debate tonight--although heated--has been restrained and dignified. Perhaps the initial reaction of many of us is to be sympathetic to the sensible campaign of the hon. Member for Thurrock. However, as I have sought to explain, his solution does not seem to the Government to be the most appropriate one, and I must, with regret, ask the Committee to reject the new clause.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The Committee divided: Ayes 129, Noes 203.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside):
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
After the seriousness and the passion of the previous debate, hon. Members may feel that the matter to which new clause 7 refers is of little consequence. However, it is important to hon. Members who take an interest in Gibraltar and to the people of the Rock and it must be resolved. The issue relates to the powers of command of officers in the Gibraltar Regiment--specifically, their powers to discipline British soldiers who are on secondment to the Gibraltar Regiment.
I shall be brief, as I know that many hon. Members wish to speak to the next new clause. I think that it is important to give the House some background information about the Gibraltar Regiment which, following the rundown of British troops stationed in Gibraltar, is now the only resident battalion on the Rock. Its primary role is to oversee the security of the territory and its military installations, but it also has administrative responsibilities and ceremonial duties.
The regiment has its roots in the Gibraltar volunteer corps of the first world war, which was spontaneously formed by the people of Gibraltar. It developed directly from the Gibraltar defence force--a territorial unit of volunteers, which was raised in April 1939. The unit later trained national service men and became the Gibraltar Regiment, with its own commanding officer, in 1958.
The Gibraltar Regiment appears in the Army List as an integral part of the British Army. It is funded and trained by the Ministry of Defence to the same standard as any British infantry regiment. Its officers hold Governor's commissions and are trained on a par with United Kingdom officers who hold Queen's commissions. A number of the officers have served, and continue to serve, in attachments to United Kingdom regiments and at Army headquarters. Some served recently with North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and United Nations forces in the former Yugoslavia.
Inspecting officers consider the training, standard and efficiency of the Gibraltar Regiment to be as high as equivalent United Kingdom regiments. That is also the view of the Defence Committee, which visited the Rock recently, and Ministers who have inspected the force. The regiment conducts training in the United Kingdom every year and during that time United Kingdom regiments take over its duties in Gibraltar.
Ever since the Gibraltar defence force was raised in 1939, soldiers from United Kingdom regiments and corps have been seconded or attached to the unit. However, in 1990 it was discovered that the commanding officer of the Gibraltar Regiment has no powers of command over personnel from United Kingdom regiments or corps who are attached or seconded to that regiment. The present position is resented and I believe that it is prejudicial to good military discipline. For example, a warrant officer who was attached to the Gibraltar Regiment was returned to the United Kingdom because it was not possible to discipline him in Gibraltar.
The anomaly has been patched up by appointing, in parallel with the commanding officer of the Gibraltar Regiment, an officer of the United Kingdom forces who
is attached to the regiment or who serves in British forces headquarters. He acts as commanding officer for disciplinary purposes for United Kingdom soldiers who are attached to the regiment. That highly unsatisfactory stop-gap arrangement belittles the position of the regiment's commanding officer as it divides his command into two categories of soldiers: those over whom he can exercise full authority and those over whom he has no disciplinary powers. Notwithstanding that fact, the two categories are equally subject to the Army Act 1955. Obviously, it is not a sound way of exercising command in any British regiment.
The Defence Committee visited the Rock last October, when the matter was drawn to our attention not only by the Gibraltar Regiment but by the commander of British forces and by the Speaker of the House of Assembly, the Hon. Colonel Bob Peliza, who is the honorary colonel of the Gibraltar Regiment. I wrote to my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, drawing his attention to the fact that the commanding officer of the Gibraltar Regiment does not have that power of command and that any British officer who is seconded to it cannot be disciplined by that regiment and must be either dealt with by the commander of British forces in Gibraltar or flown back to the United Kingdom for disciplinary action.
My hon. Friend replied to my letter, as did the Secretary of State for Defence, who acknowledged the existing anomaly. I wish to put on record my hon. Friend's response:
The letter is dated 30 November last year. The issue has been outstanding since 1990 and, although it may be linked inextricably to other questions, the learned legal advisers should by now have found some legal formula to resolve the problem. If it is not resolved in this legislation, it will probably be five years before it is considered again. That is a good reason for setting the ball rolling this evening with new clause 7.
If the substance of the new clause is accepted, it will end an anomaly that has been detrimental to good order and military discipline in a regiment of Her Majesty's forces for five years. If we do nothing, it will continue to have that effect for another five years. I believe that we have a responsibility to put the matter right once and for all. That is the wish of the Army commanders who are directly responsible for the discipline and the proficiency of the Gibraltar Regiment, such as the commander of the British forces in Gibraltar and the director of infantry. Incidentally, it is also the view of Army Legal Services, which has urged action on that essentially purely legal technicality for five years.
AYES
Alton, David
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Armstrong, Hilary
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Battle, John
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Betts, Clive
Boateng, Paul
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Etherington, Bill
Fatchett, Derek
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Fraser, John
Fyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mildred
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Harvey, Nick
Henderson, Doug
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoey, Kate
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley North)
Hoyle, Doug
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Janner, Greville
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Jowell, Tessa
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Loyden, Eddie
McFall, John
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclennan, Robert
McMaster, Gordon
McNamara, Kevin
Madden, Max
Marek, Dr John
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Michael, Alun
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire)
Olner, Bill
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Dawn
Quin, Ms Joyce
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Salmond, Alex
Sedgemore, Brian
Short, Clare
Simpson, Alan
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Straw, Jack
Timms, Stephen
Turner, Dennis
Tyler, Paul
Vaz, Keith
Wallace, James
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Wicks, Malcolm
Wray, Jimmy
Mr. Terry Lewis and
Mr. Dennis Skinner.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Jack, Michael
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Key, Robert
Kirkhope, Timothy
Kirkwood, Archy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lidington, David
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Mates, Michael
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Mellor, Rt Hon David
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, Rt Hon John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David (Waveney)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tredinnick, David
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Derek Conway and
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin.
'. After section 207 of the Army Act 1955 there shall be inserted the following section--
"(1) Without prejudice to the generality of section 207 above, any person who is subject to military law by virtue of section 205(1)(a) to (j) of this Act and who is, whether temporarily or not, attached to the Gibraltar Regiment, shall for the duration of that attachment be subject to the discipline of the Commanding Officer of that Regiment.
(2) In this section, 'The Gibraltar Regiment' means the Regiment raised under the law of Gibraltar".'.--[Mr. Colvin.]
Brought up, and read the First time.7 pm
"As you say, the Commanding Officer of the Gibraltar Regiment at present has no formal disciplinary powers over a soldier of the British Army seconded to it. The MOD's legal advisers are in the process of determining the most efficient legislative means to rectify this situation. I can assure you that this is proceeding as a matter of priority but the case of the Gibraltar Regiment is inextricably linked to wider legal questions concerning powers of command. These are complex issues of considerable importance which are likely to take some time to resolve."
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