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PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION
Comptroller and Auditor General
34. Mr. John Marshall: To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what is the number of accountants employed by the Comptroller and Auditor General. [27701]
Sir Peter Hordern (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission): I understand that the National Audit Office currently employs more than 350 qualified accountants and 70 qualified accounting technicians. A further 103 staff are training for those qualifications. In addition, the NAO contracts out about 12 per cent. of accounts audit work to the private sector. As a result, all accounts are audited by trained staff.
Mr. Marshall: Would my right hon. Friend consider the secondment of just one of those accountants to the United Nations so that Mr. Boutros Boutros-Ghali could learn the virtues of economy? Could he also send one to the German Government, who have yet to pay their annual subscription to the United Nations? Should not those who call for a single European foreign policy at least be willing to pay the bill?
Sir Peter Hordern: The Comptroller and Auditor General is a member of a three-nation board that audits the accounts of the United Nations. Of course, in that capacity he is responsible to the United Nations and not to the House, but if he is able to establish that contributions have not been paid and that the United Kingdom bears an undue burden as a result of that, it would be open to any Member of the House or the Public Accounts Committee to ask him for a report so that the issue could be considered.
National Audit Office
35. Mr. Steen: To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission if he will increase the allocation of staff costs in respect of the operating budget of the National Audit Office. [27702]
Sir Peter Hordern: The National Audit Office estimate for 1996-97, approved by the Commission in January, provides for an increasing number of financial audits, for a rise in the level of regularity and propriety work and for sufficient value-for-money investigations to offer the Committee on Public Accounts a margin of choice in the subjects that it considers.
Mr. Steen: That was an impressive answer. However, the House should be aware that, as the National Audit Office aims to ensure that we get better value for money, as all the legislation we pass here is properly vetted and costed and as we have approved 7,850 statutory instruments since January 1994, it must be inevitable that we will have to increase even further the staff at the National Audit Office. As we pass more rules, regulations and Acts of Parliament, the number of staff, the amount of bureaucracy and the number of officials will rise sky high. Will my right hon. Friend comment on that?
Sir Peter Hordern: I do not agree with my hon. Friend. The National Audit Office is an example to every Department. It is increasing the volume of its work and effectiveness at lower cost--in not just real but cash terms. If every Department were to do the same as the NAO, which works on our behalf, the Government and the House would be a great deal better off.
Mr. Olner: If Departments really respect the view of the National Audit Office, how come the Government do not accept the views of the auditors in respect of Westminster city council?
Sir Peter Hordern: Westminster city council's accounts are audited by the Audit Commission, not the National Audit Office.
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
British Council
32. Mr. Hain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the current role of the British Council in overseas aid programmes. [27699]
Mr. Hanley: The British Council makes a valuable contribution to the UK aid programme, by supporting the Government's development objectives through activities financed by the grant in aid, and more generally as a supplier of educational and other services under contract to the Overseas Development Administration and other development organisations.
Mr. Hain: If the Government recognise that the British Council performs such a valuable role, why are the Government so savagely cutting the council's budget by £22 million over the next three years? That is surely the act of a bunch of cretins, and it breaks an election pledge because in 1992, the Conservatives promised to strengthen the British Council. Having seen the council's valuable work in Angola, Egypt and Gaza I can confirm that the council is not only conducting good works but serves as a shop window for Britain's commercial organisations and image abroad.
Mr. Hanley: Activity in the countries covered is at a record level. The council has 229 offices in 109 countries, compared with 108 offices in 79 countries when we took office. There is no change in Government policy towards British Council grant in aid. We continue to value highly the council's work in development and cultural diplomacy, but the 1995 public expenditure round was particularly rigorous and resulted in a reduction in funds for the aid programme. It was not possible to protect the British Council from the effects, but the way in which that reduction will work its way through is being considered and there will be decisions before the end of this month.
CHURCH COMMISSIONERS
Bishops' Palaces (Maintenance Costs)
36. Mr. Tony Banks: To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what are the annual maintenance costs in respect of bishops' palaces. [27703]
Mr. Michael Alison (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners): The annual maintenance cost in 1995
for the 45 diocesan bishops' houses, including the Archbishop of Canterbury's London base of Lambeth palace, was £1,704,000. That figure includes repairs and decorations; other outgoings, such as insurance and water rates; garden outgoings, including gardeners' pay; and the cost of staff accommodation, less incomes from lettings and so forth.
Mr. Banks: Methinks the right hon. Gentleman doth protest too much. I did not know the supplementary question that I would ask until, like manna from heaven, I saw a story in the Daily Mail reporting the new Bishop of Chelmsford as saying that he does not want his new palace--which offers six bedrooms, three bathrooms, staff accommodation and three acres of ground. That is not sufficient for the new Bishop of Chelmsford. Perhaps he should remember the words of Matthew, chapter 19, verse 24:
- "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
If a manger in a stable was good enough for the Lord, whingeing from the princes of the Church is not good enough for us.
Mr. Alison:
The hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), with almost Gallic fervour, is trying to score a goal in the last five minutes--but he has not succeeded. The good Bishop of Chelmsford occupies a small amount of the accommodation, but the house is impossibly close to the A12 dual carriageway and one cannot hear oneself speak, think or pray in the palace. It would be a good thing if the bishop found better accommodation.
Mr. Garnier:
If the hon. and saintly Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) is so concerned about the size of bishops' palaces, would not one answer be to open them more frequently to the public so that others could also enjoy this architectural heritage, just as we enjoy the heritage of our other great buildings?
Mr. Alison:
Yes. My hon. and learned Friend makes a good point. Of the 45 diocesan bishops' residences, only 11 can properly be described as having an historic background. Of those 11, Auckland castle, Hartlebury castle and the palace of Wells are already open to the public; and I believe that the Archbishop of York is seeking to open up Bishopsthorpe in York. My hon. and learned Friend's point is well taken, therefore.
38. Mr. Simon Hughes:
To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what is the number of residential properties that are owned by the Church of England and not currently designated for use by clergy; and if he will place a list of the properties in the Library. [27705]
Mr. Alison:
The Church Commissioners do not keep central records of Church of England properties that are not currently designated for use by clergy. Each diocese keeps a record of the property it owns and of clergy's houses, and of whether they are empty or occupied. The Church Commissioners own, as part of their investment
Mr. Hughes:
Given the large number of people who are without housing, temporary or permanent, will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries, if necessary diocese by diocese, so as to satisfy hon. Members that these properties are being made good use of? During the period between one incumbent leaving and another taking up his post--often as long as six months or more--and on any other occasions when properties are not used for Church members of staff, they should not be left empty. Instead, they should be offered, short term, to meet people's
Mr. Alison:
As I have said, that is the responsibility of the parishes and dioceses, but I shall see that the hon. Gentleman's observations are passed on to them, in view of his interest in the matter.
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