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Mr. Dalyell: My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East asked specific questions about science, and I asked the same sorts of serious questions. What are the Government doing about the prion problem and the basic science of this issue? That is a serious and straightforward question.
Mr. Jones: I shall try to answer the questions that hon. Members have asked. I know that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mrs. Browning), wants to address several issues tomorrow.
I like to think that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East is essentially a nice man. I know that he is aware of the Labour party's problem of being irresponsible on this issue and unfit to govern in general. I prefer to think that he is a nice man, and that he has the awful spectre of the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms Harman) hanging over him--she has done so much to create chaos on this subject.
However, the hon. Member for Peckham is not the only hon. Member to have created chaos in this regard. If hon. Members doubt that, I refer them to what the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams) said this afternoon. The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) made a necessary intervention on the hon. Gentleman and reminded him to be more temperate in his language, as it was being recorded in Hansard.
I hoped that, when the hon. Member for Carmarthen spoke about the multiplier effect, he would be as conscious as I am of the situation in west Wales and what has happened there as a result of the Sea Empress disaster. Indeed, I imagined that he would be the type of person who would want to put the sticker that I have in my hand on the back of his car. It states, "I'm still eating British beef." I obtained the stickers in west Wales last week from the Pembrokeshire Women's Farmers Union. They are now being displayed on my official car and on my private car. I hope that all hon. Members will take the opportunity to hit home that message.
The hon. Member for Carmarthen talked about the Government going to Europe with contrition and remorse. It was then that I realised that he was being unrealistic. He said that the Government should do that if they were serious about eradicating BSE--in fact, it would be a disservice to the farming community and to Britain in general. My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Mr. Baker) was being sarcastic when he described the hon. Gentleman as a distinguished scientist. When the hon. Gentleman told the House about the number of farmers in his constituency, I thought that his remarks would benefit the Conservative candidate there. He brought home the way in which the Labour party is writing off the rural vote in Wales--and the rural vote elsewhere in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Tyler:
Could the Minister spend a few minutes answering the real questions asked by a number of Conservative and Opposition Members instead of indulging in this ridiculous knock-about stuff? I have received a message from an auctioneer who covers Cornwall who said that, this afternoon, he was told by St. Merryn Meat, the local abattoir, that instead of being able to take the cattle it was intending to take, it has had its allocation cut by 300 by the intervention board and the explanation it has been given is that an abattoir is going on-line in Wales. If this is not evidence of yet more confusion today--which is what hon. Members on both sides of the House have been putting to Ministers--what is it?
Mr. Jones:
If the hon. Gentleman had not spoken at such length, I would have been able to answer more of the questions asked by hon. Members.
The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) was concerned about the labelling of feed. I confirm that the United Kingdom agricultural supplier trade association has said that major feed compounders will switch to full ingredient listing at the earliest opportunity. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome this initiative, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce).
I shall now refer to the test for BSE. I am advised that Dr. Narang has not published details of his test, nor has he shown its validation by publishing it in a scientific journal. He has not given us any details of the test. However, we are in discussion about providing him with samples so that he can provide an independent demonstration of whether his test works.
The hon. Member for Carmarthen also talked about the deregulation of rendering. The Government did not relax regulations on rendering meat and bonemeal for feed--the decision was taken by the renderers when the consequences of what appeared to be a technical change could not have been appreciated.
Mr. Welsh:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Jones:
The hon. Gentleman has not been present during most of the debate. However, I shall give way.
Mr. Welsh:
Is there a test for contaminated foodstuffs? Will the brains of slaughtered cattle be analysed to establish hard evidence of the pathological nature of the disease so that it is a basis for policy and for customer confidence?
Mr. Jones:
As I said earlier, the matter is of particular interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton, who wants to deal with the Weybridge experiment--as it was referred to by the hon. Member for Cardiff, West. As there are only six minutes remaining to me, I must make some progress.
Sir Michael Spicer:
The important question of vertical transmission has been raised once or twice during the debate. I understand that important work is going on at Weybridge, but there is other important work as well. It is becoming increasingly difficult to get hold of herd book data--genealogical data--held by the Government. Will my hon. Friend have a word with our hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mrs. Browning) to find out whether there is a problem and whether research in that difficult area is being impeded by officials withholding information? My hon. Friend may not wish to answer the question now, but perhaps our hon. Friend will respond tomorrow.
Mr. Jones:
I have been in conversation with my hon. Friend during the day, and she has told me that the work at Weybridge has been accelerated. She has also heard my hon. Friend's comments.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East apologised that he could not stay to hear all of my speech. I thank him for agreeing with my right hon. and learned Friend that no contaminated feed is reaching cattle and that compliance is now very good. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as anyone that it is important that the situation is not undermined by the sorts of irresponsible comments that some of his colleagues make occasionally. It is
important for confidence here and in Europe--a point emphasised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stamford and Spalding (Mr. Davies), who also apologised for his inability to remain to hear the winding-up speeches.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East said that he shared the Government's commitment to lifting the ban on British beef and beef products. He asked about the prior options review of research establishments. It is perfectly proper that Government-owned scientific laboratories should be reviewed from time to time. No decisions have yet been taken regarding the animal science establishments that deal with BSE and CJD, and the reviews of those laboratories are not due to be completed until July.
The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) brought some life into his exchanges with my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir J. Spicer) when he told us that he was red-blooded today. He admitted that he had eaten beef--I am delighted to hear it--but I can only imagine that it must have been the rarest of fillet steaks to put red blood into his veins when it comes to matters European. I am glad that he also endorsed the step-by-step approach to lifting the ban.
The hon. Gentleman inquired about the selective cull policy. It has been put to the Commission and we have made it clear that we took that decision in the context of discussions about lifting the ban. As my right hon. and learned Friend said, we have released a consultation document about a mature beef scheme. The consultation period ends on Friday and, naturally, we shall also discuss our proposals with the Commission.
I was very impressed by the concerted action taken by hon. Members who represent Dorset constituencies. There were strong representations from my hon. Friends the Members for West Dorset, for North Dorset and for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce). I understand the indignation expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset regarding the hon. Member for Peckham. He was correct to remind us of the actions of the last Labour Government in discouraging milk production.
Mr. Morgan:
I have a question about the slaughterhouses. Does the Minister think it wise that
Mr. Jones:
I shall deal with that point and with the other issue raised by the hon. Member for Caernarfon. There are presently 96 abattoirs and 213 markets. The scheme began on 3 May, but, because of the constraints of rendering, we had to restrict it initially to 40 abattoirs. The limitations of rendering capacity pose a logistical challenge in administering the 30-month scheme. However, we do not believe that the arrangements are adequate in certain parts of the country.
I am particularly concerned about the situation in west Wales, and we are seeking urgent improvements to the arrangements in that respect. I understand that the abattoir at Gaerwen, Anglesey will begin culling animals from next Monday. There is also provision at Abergavenny and we are served by Shrewsbury.
The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Caernarfon referred to reports that retailers are refusing to buy meat from abattoirs that are operating the 30-month scheme. I am aware of those reports. The daily meetings held by my hon. Friend the Minister of State are designed to deal precisely with such concerns. It is important to remember that we introduced the 30-month scheme in response to a request from retailers. We must now make it work. The scheme's rules, with the Meat Hygiene Service's strict controls, are more than adequate to ensure that only meat from animals under 30 months old reaches the consumer. If the reports are true, I hope that retailers will think again on the issue.
Finally, many hon. Members have said that we should retaliate against other member states if the export ban is not lifted. The Government's objective is to lift that unjustified ban on cattle, beef and beef products in the single market and third countries. We are working hard towards that end and some progress is being made. Premature retaliation is much more likely to hinder--
It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
University Funding (Yorkshire)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Knapman.]
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