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Mr. John McFall (Dumbarton): Not enough.
Mr. Morley: Indeed not, because the hon. Gentleman devotes a further 26 pages to the sayings of the Conservatives associated with the European People's party, and how they are selling out to the EU. So I do not think that hon. Members can accuse the Labour party of giving in to Europe.
What I have described illustrates the civil war taking place on the Conservative Benches, and shows how it is affecting the position of this country. That is why the Labour party is asking for a vote tonight. We believe that a vote is an important expression of the views of the House, and we shall vote on the Adjournment to demonstrate our concern about the problems in the beef sector and the lack of adequate response so far.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mrs. Angela Browning):
How nice to see so many members of the Labour party here tonight. As none of them bothered to turn up for Monday's agriculture debate, they have obviously been shamed into coming here on Thursday instead.
Although the debate is about the common agricultural policy, inevitably it has focused on BSE and the difficulties in the beef market. It is right that it should have done so, because there is no doubt that we are dealing with one of the most serious issues that has faced agriculture in this country for many years, possibly since the second world war.
Some hon. Members widened the subject somewhat and talked about the more general aspects of the CAP. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) mentioned the need for reform, and spoke about the problems of fraud within the CAP.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater(Mr. King) made his usual constructive contribution and went into the details of why the common agricultural policy must be examined.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Mrs. Lait) emphasised the implications of a wider Europe, with countries coming in from eastern Europe. She mentioned in particular the effect on fruit and vegetable production in her constituency, and the need for all member states to be aware of the need for CAP reform.
The Conservative Government have produced a document outlining our plans for reform of the CAP, and quite rightly. When one considers that two thirds of all CAP expenditure goes to farmers, there is a need to reform the policy rather than merely to have a knee-jerk reaction in the future, when the expansion of the Community is more imminent.
Everyone knows that agriculture needs a long lead time. For it to be reformed overnight would be disastrous--for farmers not only in this country but across the Community. We shall continue to press our European partners to adopt sensible proposals to start the dialogue and discussion about what is necessary to reform the CAP.
As some Conservative Members mentioned in their speeches, the hon. Member for Monklands, East(Mrs. Liddell) said at the beginning of her speech that she felt that co-operation was needed across the Chamber on the very difficult issue of BSE and its effects on the beef industry. Regrettably, she then went on in a manner that is characteristic not only of her but of other Opposition Members. It has been picked up--
Mr. Donald Dewar (Glasgow, Garscadden):
She told the truth.
Mrs. Browning:
No, not necessarily. She went on to identify certain aspects of policy with which she disagreed. Like all hon. Members, I share her concern for those working in the meat industry, such as head boners, who have suffered because of what has happened with BSE. I have concern for head boners in particular because a SEAC recommendation made the entire head, apart from the tongue, a specified bovine material. So of course we have sympathy for those people. It was extremely
Mr. Michael J. Martin:
Will the Minister give way?
Mrs. Browning:
I shall do so in a moment, because I know that the hon. Gentleman mentioned them in his speech.
The hon. Member for Monklands, East went on to expand on other aspects of the downstream effects of what has happened, and the effects on many workers in many ancillary industries. She did not tell the House whether, under Labour party policy, public money would have been used to compensate everyone who has lost. I reiterate again that public money in very large measure has gone, and it continues to go, to keeping the beef market open.
As many hon. Members have said in this debate, regardless of how long it takes to raise the ban, the restoration of the entire beef industry--abattoirs, hauliers and everyone in the chain--depends on us restoring confidence and keeping the chain open. We have directed public money to keeping that chain open. It would be impossible to compensate, pound for pound, everyone who has lost because of the crisis.
It is extremely unjustified to say that the Government have mocked, because we have listened and tried to be as sympathetic as we can, but our resources are limited. If the hon. Lady was saying that a Labour Government would not have limited resources in this matter, she should say so.
Mr. Martin:
I ask the Minister to reconsider the position of the people in the head boning industry whom I mentioned. They were told on a Thursday night to finish their business. They were not able to continue on the Friday morning. Surely people such as Mrs. Fyfe should get some compensation. She will be made bankrupt if the Minister does not do something.
Mrs. Browning:
I thought that I had just explained to the hon. Gentleman the difficulty caused to the head boners by the fact that the material that they used was made a specified bovine material overnight. Regrettably, it had to be that way once SEAC had said that the head could not be used. We were able to give some support to head boners who had meat in chillers, although I appreciate that it was small in comparison to the overall business, if the business was dependent entirely on processing bovine heads. We gave careful consideration to the matter, but he will appreciate the precedent of our picking out individuals for direct compensation. The money that has been made available to date was not to compensate pound for pound but to keep the chain open and keep the industry going within the United Kingdom so that even those people down the line, to whom the hon. Member for Monklands, East referred, would have a chance. We wished to save jobs by keeping the whole of the production chain going, keeping the beef industry going, and improving confidence.
The hon. Member for Monklands, East also accused us of being ostrich-like on the selective cull. I am not sure what she meant by that. The proposal for a selective cull
has been put to Europe. It would take out cohorts of animals. It is based, as close as we can get, on scientific evidence. The aim is to remove animals that might possibly go down with BSE in the future. If the hon. Lady thinks that the policy that we have presented to Europe, and which it has rejected so far, is ostrich-like, and if 42,000 specially selected animals is not enough, it is incumbent on her to say how many animals would be culled under a Labour Government. Would it be whole herds of animals?
A recurring theme in the speeches of Opposition Members, including that of the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley), is the suggestion that Labour would have been better at negotiating. Indeed, it would. Its tactics and policies have been clearly spelt out by the leader of the Labour party. He has said that he would never be isolated in Europe. He would not stand up for the British interest. In negotiations, he would not, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister has done, represent scientifically the British interest. He would have rolled over, played dead and said, "How many animals do you want us to kill? We will go back home and do it." That would not be in the interests of the farming industry or of this country. The Conservative Government will not roll over and play dead.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Northavon(Sir J. Cope), who followed the hon. Member for Monklands, East, paid tribute--
Mr. Ron Davies (Caerphilly):
She is reading her brief.
Mrs. Browning:
I am not using the civil service brief. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that so many interesting speeches have been made by hon. Members on both sides of the House tonight that I intend in the customary way to give my personal appreciation of what has been said.
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