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Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse): With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 69, in clause 72, page 47, line 16 after 'section', insert
'(restrictions on use by accused of sexual or violent prosecution material) or'.
Mr. Michael: The purpose of the new clause is to stop the scandal and the disgrace of prosecution material--including photographs and interview material--being used as pornography both inside and outside prison. It is right that any material that is used by the prosecution should be viewed by the defendant in order for the defendant to prepare his or her case. However, it is not right that such material--which often includes photographs of innocent victims or transcripts of interviews with women or vulnerable children--should be in circulation inside prison or elsewhere in order to provide a most disgusting form of pornography. That is what is occurring at present. It is not new, and the Government have been aware of it for some time. It is a disgrace that must be ended.
Mr. Alex Carlile (Montgomery): I wish to pose some serious practical problems to the hon. Gentleman. In his new clause, he uses the phrase "sexual or violent nature" rather than "sexual and violent nature". Many of those on remand face charges regarding the commission of violent acts, such as murder or grievous bodily harm. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that he does not intend to prevent prisoners on remand from working on the papers associated with their cases while in their cells, so that they may instruct their lawyers properly for the purposes of the trial? Alternatively, is the hon. Gentleman prepared to countenance the provision of special rooms within prisons where prisoners can do that work and thereby instruct their advisers properly?
Mr. Michael: I welcome the Liberal Democrats to the consideration of the Bill. We have heard little from them until now--Liberal Democrat Members were absent during the Committee's considerations. That is a matter of choice, but it is nice to know that they have decided to take a belated interest in the legislation. If the hon. and learned Gentleman had attended the Committee, he would have heard our illuminating debate and he would know the answer to his question. If he had read the new clause, he would know the answer to his question. It states:
- "No modification made under subsection (1) above shall have the effect of preventing the accused from inspecting any material which he would but for the provisions of this section be able to inspect."
Mr. Carlile: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Michael: I shall not give way for a moment or two. With respect to the hon. and learned Gentleman, it would be useful if he allowed us to start the debate on an issue covered by the Bill in which he and his party have taken no interest. The hon. and learned Gentleman is trying to sideline an important discussion, and I do not understand why. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me to advance my argument for the new clause, I shall be happy to give way to him and respond to any queries that he may make. Because of his interruptions, I have not even been given the opportunity to explain why the new clause is so important.
I shall return to the basics of the argument. It is a disgrace and a scandal that evidential material, including photographs and interviews with vulnerable people who have been the subject of attacks, should be made available and circulated within prison. That happens on many occasions and we must take a grip on that problem.
This is not the first time that the issue has been raised; we raised it during our debates on the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, but the matter has not been dealt with. We have just witnessed the introduction of a ten-minute Bill calling for a paedophile register--another aspect of child abuse that needs to be tackled. We hear much on that subject from Conservative Members, but there seems to be little action from the Home Secretary, who blocked the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Ms Anderson). My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness(Mr. Hutton) also introduced a Bill to try to deal with such serious issues, but we seem to have heard nothing from the Home Secretary. Under pressure, the Home Secretary has started consultation on both those issues. He is not renowned for consulting people when he wants to do anything. The protection of children is a matter for action. Cross-party consensus should be sought to find a means of tackling the problem.
Material such as the photographs that need to be shown in evidence to reveal the nature of attacks and the interviews in which the attacks are described in detail should be protected from abuse. It should not be allowed to be circulated and used as pornographic material. I stress the need to prevent that from happening both inside and outside prison, but it is a particular scandal that it should happen in prison.
Our new clause deals with all the objections made to our first attempt in Committee to table a new clause to deal with such abuse. First, it gives a power to the Secretary of State to introduce a statutory instrument to protect material of the sort described. Secondly, it makes it a condition that the order must be placed before Parliament no later than six months after the Act is passed. That provision deals with the point made in Committee about the Home Secretary's consultation--it allows the consultation to continue and the findings to be incorporated in the statutory instrument, thus avoiding the delay caused by waiting for primary legislation. The new clause also refers to material of a sexual or violent nature and to circumstances where there are reasonable grounds for supposing that the accused or others will use the material for purposes other than the preparation of the accused's defence.
To deal with the point of detail raised by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile), I am advised that the words "and or" should not be used in legislation. In most circumstances, we would be dealing with material of a sexual or violent nature used in circumstances where there are reasonable grounds for supposing that the accused either would abuse that material or would come under pressure to make the material available to others.
The way in which we have phrased the new clause allows either for a knowledge of circumstances in which material might be abused or for a knowledge of circumstances in which the nature of the material would lead to temptation that it be used as pornographic material. The reason for having "or" rather than "and" is that it would be a disgrace, in my view, if, through a
technicality, some material could not be protected despite knowledge of its nature or knowledge of the circumstances. In most circumstances, both those conditions would be fulfilled.
As I have said, the interest of the accused in preparing his case would be protected by subsection (3). Subsection (4) sets out the need for the Home Secretary to make requirements in the order for the retention and custody of material. The purpose of that is to deal with three circumstances, which also cover the point made by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery. The first is the situation in prison where arrangements would have to be made for the accused to be able to inspect material, but would not allow him to take it into his possession in a way that would allow him to abuse it or come under pressure to allow others to use it as pornographic material. The second situation is when access is controlled by a legal representative in the community, and the third is that of the unrepresented defendant, who also might need to have access to such material. In that case, it would still be right that misuse of the material should be prevented.
I hope that what we are trying to do is clear. The new clause is an enabling clause and it would enable the Home Secretary to do what he has promised to do, which is to introduce legislation to deal with the problem. The new clause would avoid an extended wait for further primary legislation, because the scandal exists now and should be tackled now.
At this point, I am happy to give way to the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery.
Mr. Alex Carlile
indicated dissent.
Mr. Michael:
If the hon. and learned Gentleman does not wish me to give way, let us make progress.
We were surprised that the Government rejected our amendments in Committee, although the Minister raised some issues, which we have overcome in the new clause. I am even more surprised that the Government have not come forward with a similar enabling clause by this stage, and the Minister should explain why not. This is an important issue and we have tabled an enabling clause that would allow rapid progress, if the Government really want to make progress. If there were to be any technical difficulties with the new clause, the Bill still has to go to the House of Lords, and that will give the Government an opportunity to undertake any fine tuning. If the new clause were to be accepted, it would deal with a serious and scandalous issue.
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